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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old December 16th, 2017, 02:26 AM   #11

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Is it possible that boats in the ancient world crossed the Atlantic.
Where did you read it was phoenician?
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:26 AM   #12

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Also in ancient time, knowing the existence of those isles, it was possible to create colonies and to keep in touch with them. Difficult, but not impossible. So that the Romans would have known about the Azores and after Phoenicians the legionaries would have settled there.

But this didn't happen.
The sheer distance wud hv made it unviable for an empire of that time. But for adventurous explorers, it wud hv been a different matter altogether. They go outward in search of, well, the sheer adventure of it, and going back to their own homeland, in their own lifetime, was no more such a high a priority.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 06:09 AM   #13

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The sheer distance wud hv made it unviable for an empire of that time. But for adventurous explorers, it wud hv been a different matter altogether. They go outward in search of, well, the sheer adventure of it, and going back to their own homeland, in their own lifetime, was no more such a high a priority.
So are there historical references to such explorers in ancient times? It's one thing for a farmer's hardy son to grab some food and ropes and an extra tunic and try climbing that high mountain that no one has ever scaled, just for the thrill and fame.

But exploring or adventuring at sea means a ship, at least one, and a very loyal and tolerant crew. And that means MONEY, surprisingly large piles of it. So we're back to wealthy men who want to stay wealthy, basically throwing away cash for a debatable chance at glory. In an era when there were already tried and trusted routes to glory and more wealth.

Yes, we know that someone had to be the first to sail along the coast of Africa, and that account of the Roman ships that sailed around Britain (though I'm not sure they *intended* to!). Most of that was done in sight of land, going from a place they knew to a place they already knew was there or at least that SOMEthing was there!

An attempt to cross the Atlantic, just to see if anything was there, would be several types of suicide.

Remember, what if the Americas didn't happen to be an impassable and unmissable string of continents? What if the winds and currents just missed a huge, wealthy island nation by 50 miles? You could easily sail right past your theoretical juicy target without knowing it, and then starve to death. These people had NO IDEA what was out there, if anything.

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Old December 16th, 2017, 09:09 AM   #14

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Romans had fleets [this is not that known around and it's something surprises me].

The Roman fleet patrolling the coasts of Great Britain circumnavigated the isle entirely [so passing North of Caledonia / Scotland].

Romans had suitable vessels for long journeys through a sea. But they used them to transport goods along the coasts. Only if they were sure to find an isle in the middle of the ocean they would have put on those vessels fresh water and food for a long journey.

And this is the point:

as I have said, there was [already in historical past] who made the hypothesis that what had seen on the isle of Corvo was a natural formation.

So ... what would have suggested to Romans to sail West ... to reach the Lucky Islands?
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:54 PM   #15

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Is it possible that boats in the ancient world crossed the Atlantic.
Possible? Yes. Plausible or probable? Doubtful.

Anyway, your have an error in the thread title: “Why did they find Phoecician Ruins in the Azores”…

There were never found Phoenician ruins in Azores. As was already said, in the middle of the 18th century, out of archeological context, in a ruined building, there were found some coins, probable Phoenician or Carthaginian.

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Regarding what they found on those isles, it was 1749 when an English expedition found coins of Phoenician origin [from IV century BCE].
I had the idea that it was found by locals after a storm. Have an article about it, but can’t locate it. Maybe it is lost like the coins.

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Even if when the Portuguese colonists reached the isles they were uninhabited, there were traces of an ancient presence.
As far as I know, that is just a thesis, still to be proven since all the traces are lost or found out of context.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #16

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It's interesting to know that extinct South Arabian script was found inscribed on the face of American rock.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 09:51 PM   #17

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There are not, to this day, any material proof to pre Portuguese presence on Azores.
There was recently in TVI (a big portuguese tv chanel) a piece about this. Rubish evidence were given:
- ruins that are not dated that can be, and apear to be from the 16th/17th century
- lava paths
- fires (that are not proofen being man made)
- pyramids*

*this last one is ridiculous, being known in etnography, archaelogy and history, that this constructions are made to remove debris from plantation areas (pratice made inclusive in the early 20th century).

Finally a note: the tv piece was targeted with critics from the archaeology and history areas, because it has cut and manipulate the opinion of the archaelogist that appaered from Lisbon and to a specialist in Maritime and Portuguese exploration, giving on the otherside credit to a delusional physicist from Azores.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 11:52 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by JM1906 View Post
There are not, to this day, any material proof to pre Portuguese presence on Azores.
There was recently in TVI (a big portuguese tv chanel) a piece about this. Rubish evidence were given:
- ruins that are not dated that can be, and apear to be from the 16th/17th century
- lava paths
- fires (that are not proofen being man made)
- pyramids*

*this last one is ridiculous, being known in etnography, archaelogy and history, that this constructions are made to remove debris from plantation areas (pratice made inclusive in the early 20th century).

Finally a note: the tv piece was targeted with critics from the archaeology and history areas, because it has cut and manipulate the opinion of the archaelogist that appaered from Lisbon and to a specialist in Maritime and Portuguese exploration, giving on the otherside credit to a delusional physicist from Azores.
It's always the same process: there have been legends about the existence of isles and lands somewhere in the oceans [it's natural to imagine that there has to be something beyond all that water].

So that when an isle has found for real, someone puts the legend with the discovery. They match! Actually it's who puts them together to make them match ...
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Old December 19th, 2017, 10:58 AM   #19

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Btw, I don't think it's impossible. Humans are capable of extraordinary deeds... I just hate that people wabt to make it sound plausible without any evidence.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 12:34 PM   #20

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Btw, I don't think it's impossible. Humans are capable of extraordinary deeds... I just hate that people wabt to make it sound plausible without any evidence.
For humans the word "impossible" is not that suitable.

Think to Australia: it has never been connected to a mainland while modern humans have existed. Despite this, when European explorers got there they met humans. Australian natives had to navigate through many kilometers of water to reach that continent ... dozens of thousands years ago ...
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