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Old February 23rd, 2018, 02:02 AM   #101
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I've been wondering about this question a lot myself...

A lot to me is confusing because the history of "Normandy" or the areas around Normandy is a complete blank a lot of the time from what I've seen aside from Caesar wrote...

So if we go by that,

Click the image to open in full size.

Well who knows if that link works, anyway, basically there were a number of different groups but the interesting thing to me is that the most prominent group were the "belgae" and not celts or gauls or however other group that gets discussed.

This continues on hundreds of years later, with the Belgae either being displaced, in alliance with, or perhaps just under sovereignty of Franks...

Click the image to open in full size.

It's a bit different, but basically at least a portion of Normandy seems to have either been Frankish or Belgae, basically, and throughout hundreds of years.

Increasingly I feel like I notice this thing, where it becomes, the reporting of exact events is really covered, like Battle of Hastings, who was there, who died, but the ebb and flow is hard to discover.

Like, I always wondered, all that about Normandy 900-1100 AD what about after? Before?

I think before the above seems to say it was fairly Belgae as much as Gaulish.

Then Vikings come, being very different, and we all covered that many times....

However, this map is also interesting to me

Click the image to open in full size.

The interesting point is that the Vikings settled in specific areas, mostly what is now known as Basse Normandie was not heavily touched by Viking settlement, whereas Haute Normandie (the region that was often Belgae or Frankish/Belgae) was...

So to answer the part about Italy, I think those were in many ways pretty much all Vikings.. that is to say, not very similar to Gauls but perhaps maybe Frankish/French?

But then the Franks were also Germanic, so not always too different from the Vikings, differing only in religion...

I guess I would simply say is they were probably more Viking and French than anything... at that point...

Centuries later... there isn't much said about Normandy, so it's not really clear what happened after that per se...

One thing I know, is that the region the Vikings mostly settled in were areas that were mostly French, I think, whereas the rest was just the rest..

Er I guess I would say it was basically Germans in Italy, if that makes sense...

Last edited by MarsBar; February 23rd, 2018 at 02:11 AM.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 02:49 AM   #102

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Er I guess I would say it was basically Germans in Italy, if that makes sense...
Not really. At least I couldn’t get a sense from it.

I also couldn’t open the maps, but you talked here in more than 1000 years of history. No map can be an accurate source for that. You also seemed to confuse Vikings with Norsemen, a pretty common confusion, and you also stated “But then the Franks were also Germanic, so not always too different from the Vikings, differing only in religion...”, a sentence with many buts… first because religion had a strong influence in the Middle Ages, second, because the fact that two human groups share a language from the same family branch (Germanic) doesn’t make them exactly the same. Furthermore, in part of that timeline, the Franks evolved from a pagan Germanic tribe to a Christian Romanized society, also influenced by the previous existing Romanized or partly Romanized populations in what was the Roman province of Gallia. The Franks of the 3rd century are not the same of the ones in the 10th century. Same can be said for the Normans, they aren’t the same thinks as Norsemen, and much less than Vikings.

It seems that you are making a reasoning that Norsemen=Germanics, and Franks=Germanics, so Norsemen=Franks. And this is a fallacy.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 03:19 AM   #103

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Interesting. By source you are mentioning the work of Amato di Montecassino?



Yes, probably Polynikes in “Burgundians” reads the word with an ethnic significance, ie, the Germanic tribe from the late of the Ancient Period and Early Medieval, while I was reading it more in a regional meaning, ie, from Burgundy, the county or the duchy, like the previous mentioned Raimundo and Henrique, or the Cluny Order.

EDIT:

When I wrote the previous post, I made a quick net search to take out some doubts, and I got a article that possible can help Polynikes, and all us here. It seems much more concerned with Architecture, but it has a small introductory history about Sicily:

“Cultural Complexity in Medieval Sicily”, by Rebecca S. Wrightson, University of Rhode Island

http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/cgi/vi...t=srhonorsprog
Yes that's the source.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 04:06 AM   #104

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I've found an other interesting note about the linkage with Burgundy: The "Storia Generale di Sicilia" mentions that Adelaide's son-in-law was Robert of Borgundy.

After the death of the husband, so widow, she run a co-regency with him [according to this source: https://books.google.it/books?id=dwI...icilia&f=false]

Now, I've got some difficulties in finding this family relation. Anyway, the mention of Robert of Burgundy moves the flux of knights from Burgundy to late XI - early XII century [around 1100].
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 09:44 AM   #105

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I will come back this evening about this, now I add just a thought: to organize a marriage there has to be a certain relation [confidende, business, mutual interests ...], so that I think that the flux from Burgundy begun well before.

But I'm going to check this ...

Regarding where Normans settled in Northern Sicily: absolutely correct, the "Versante Tirrenico" [near the strait] presents a not little number of Norman castles and strongholds [the "Palatium Normanno" comes immediately to mind].
What about in the Palermo region? Not necessarily just the city (although the city is included too obviously)?

Also approximately how many Burgundian knights would you estimate came to Sicily?

Lastly, what other areas do you think French knights came from besides Burgundy and Normandy?

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 10:25 AM   #106

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Originally Posted by Tulius View Post
... I also couldn’t open the maps ...
I edited the post, so the images are visible:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsBar View Post
I've been wondering about this question a lot myself...

A lot to me is confusing because the history of "Normandy" or the areas around Normandy is a complete blank a lot of the time from what I've seen aside from Caesar wrote...

So if we go by that,

Click the image to open in full size.

Well who knows if that link works, anyway, basically there were a number of different groups but the interesting thing to me is that the most prominent group were the "belgae" and not celts or gauls or however other group that gets discussed.

This continues on hundreds of years later, with the Belgae either being displaced, in alliance with, or perhaps just under sovereignty of Franks...

Click the image to open in full size.

It's a bit different, but basically at least a portion of Normandy seems to have either been Frankish or Belgae, basically, and throughout hundreds of years.

Increasingly I feel like I notice this thing, where it becomes, the reporting of exact events is really covered, like Battle of Hastings, who was there, who died, but the ebb and flow is hard to discover.

Like, I always wondered, all that about Normandy 900-1100 AD what about after? Before?

I think before the above seems to say it was fairly Belgae as much as Gaulish.

Then Vikings come, being very different, and we all covered that many times....

However, this map is also interesting to me

Click the image to open in full size.

The interesting point is that the Vikings settled in specific areas, mostly what is now known as Basse Normandie was not heavily touched by Viking settlement, whereas Haute Normandie (the region that was often Belgae or Frankish/Belgae) was...

So to answer the part about Italy, I think those were in many ways pretty much all Vikings.. that is to say, not very similar to Gauls but perhaps maybe Frankish/French?

But then the Franks were also Germanic, so not always too different from the Vikings, differing only in religion...

I guess I would simply say is they were probably more Viking and French than anything... at that point...

Centuries later... there isn't much said about Normandy, so it's not really clear what happened after that per se...

One thing I know, is that the region the Vikings mostly settled in were areas that were mostly French, I think, whereas the rest was just the rest..

Er I guess I would say it was basically Germans in Italy, if that makes sense...
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Originally Posted by Tulius View Post
Not really. At least I couldn’t get a sense from it.

I also couldn’t open the maps, but you talked here in more than 1000 years of history. No map can be an accurate source for that. You also seemed to confuse Vikings with Norsemen, a pretty common confusion, and you also stated “But then the Franks were also Germanic, so not always too different from the Vikings, differing only in religion...”, a sentence with many buts… first because religion had a strong influence in the Middle Ages, second, because the fact that two human groups share a language from the same family branch (Germanic) doesn’t make them exactly the same. Furthermore, in part of that timeline, the Franks evolved from a pagan Germanic tribe to a Christian Romanized society, also influenced by the previous existing Romanized or partly Romanized populations in what was the Roman province of Gallia. The Franks of the 3rd century are not the same of the ones in the 10th century. Same can be said for the Normans, they aren’t the same thinks as Norsemen, and much less than Vikings.

It seems that you are making a reasoning that Norsemen=Germanics, and Franks=Germanics, so Norsemen=Franks. And this is a fallacy.
Agreed
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 11:48 AM   #107

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Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
What about in the Palermo region? Not necessarily just the city (although the city is included too obviously)?

Also approximately how many Burgundian knights would you estimate came to Sicily?

Lastly, what other areas do you think French knights came from besides Burgundy and Normandy?

Click the image to open in full size.
What are you looking for in the area of Palermo? Norman castles?

You can find all you want:

Altofonte [XI century]
Castronovo [XI century]
La Grua Talamanca [XI century]
Rocca di Cefalù [XI century]
Gratteri Castle [XI century]

... and so on.

If you're looking for French strongholds, in the area of Palermo, during the Norman domination Normans ruled over castles. It was later [when French Kings ruled over Sicily] that castles in the area of Palermo passed in the hands of French Lords. But that was a different story.

How many Burgundian Knights ...

I've got no direct sources [and anyway we know that medieval sources about numbers are not exactly reliable].

Anyway, since we are dealing with a land which gave a wife and a [probably] husband to the Royal Norman dynasty of Sicily ... in that age this meant that hundreds of Knights reached the land where the noble man or woman was going to get married.

About other origins of French Knight, leave me the incoming weekend to check this. I don't exclude Paris [on my memory, so let's check this].
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 12:06 PM   #108

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
What are you looking for in the area of Palermo? Norman castles?

You can find all you want:

Altofonte [XI century]
Castronovo [XI century]
La Grua Talamanca [XI century]
Rocca di Cefalù [XI century]
Gratteri Castle [XI century]

... and so on.

If you're looking for French strongholds, in the area of Palermo, during the Norman domination Normans ruled over castles. It was later [when French Kings ruled over Sicily] that castles in the area of Palermo passed in the hands of French Lords. But that was a different story.

How many Burgundian Knights ...

I've got no direct sources [and anyway we know that medieval sources about numbers are not exactly reliable].

Anyway, since we are dealing with a land which gave a wife and a [probably] husband to the Royal Norman dynasty of Sicily ... in that age this meant that hundreds of Knights reached the land where the noble man or woman was going to get married.

About other origins of French Knight, leave me the incoming weekend to check this. I don't exclude Paris [on my memory, so let's check this].
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I was mainly asking about where French knights settled the most? That's why I was asking whether or not Palermo would be a hotbed of descendants of French knights i.e. Could many Sicilians living in the region trace their ancestry back hypothetically to French warriors who moved to Sicily?

And when you say hundreds, I'm assuming anywhere 700-900 knights, correct?
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 12:33 PM   #109

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Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I was mainly asking about where French knights settled the most? That's why I was asking whether or not Palermo would be a hotbed of descendants of French knights i.e. Could many Sicilians living in the region trace their ancestry back hypothetically to French warriors who moved to Sicily?

And when you say hundreds, I'm assuming anywhere 700-900 knights, correct?
The interference of the Angiò period [the French Royal House of Sicily] generates some troubles about tracing French origins of Sicilian families from the Norman age, but [like for Perollo family] with a bit of patient I think it's possible to trace the origin of some noble Sicilian families before of the arrival of the French Kings.

I will check this.

Regarding numbers: at least 500. A noble woman or man, going to a far land to get married would have traveled with a remarkable guard and also with a not irrelevant number of knights from his [her] land.
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Old February 23rd, 2018, 04:33 PM   #110

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The interference of the Angiò period [the French Royal House of Sicily] generates some troubles about tracing French origins of Sicilian families from the Norman age, but [like for Perollo family] with a bit of patient I think it's possible to trace the origin of some noble Sicilian families before of the arrival of the French Kings.

I will check this.

Regarding numbers: at least 500. A noble woman or man, going to a far land to get married would have traveled with a remarkable guard and also with a not irrelevant number of knights from his [her] land.
Thanks for the great response AlpinLuke, I greatly appreciate it.

And this may seem off topic, and my apologies for this, perhaps Tulius could answer maybe, but do we see a huge influx of Spanish knights following the Vespers?

How significant was the influx of Spaniards to the region, and did they choose to live there permanently? If so, were they mostly knights or almogovars or archers or what have you?
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