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Old February 14th, 2018, 11:07 AM   #51

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Lombards in Sicily ...

a part that they are still there [there are communities of Lombards who live in Sicily today as well and they are the descendants of those Lombards].

It's curious that the Normans wanted migrants from North West Italy [from here, Piedmont, and Liguria]. The reason of this seems to be a will to reinforce the Latin component of the local population [that, in the eyes of the Normans, was too Arab and too Greek].

Why knights? Not all Lombards were knights in Sicily [as it's obvious], but a good part of them, since from North West Italy a lot of warriors came [looking for fortune, land, a feud ...].
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Old February 14th, 2018, 12:47 PM   #52

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Lombards in Sicily ...

a part that they are still there [there are communities of Lombards who live in Sicily today as well and they are the descendants of those Lombards].

It's curious that the Normans wanted migrants from North West Italy [from here, Piedmont, and Liguria]. The reason of this seems to be a will to reinforce the Latin component of the local population [that, in the eyes of the Normans, was too Arab and too Greek].

Why knights? Not all Lombards were knights in Sicily [as it's obvious], but a good part of them, since from North West Italy a lot of warriors came [looking for fortune, land, a feud ...].

Weren't the Lombards already (still) there when Normans came ?

Quote:
... All’arrivo dei primi cavalieri normanni, l’Italia meridionale era così divisa:

• L’attuale Calabria, Basilicata e Puglia costituivano il Catapanato (nell'Impero Bizantino, governatore di provincia) bizantino d’Italia, il cui catapano risiedeva a Bari. Il Catapanato, a sua volta, era diviso in TEMI (circoscrizioni amministrative) di Longobardia, con capitale Bari, di Calabria, con capitale Reggio, di Lucania, con capitale Tursi.

• Ai loro confini vi erano i principati longobardi di Benevento, Salerno e Capua (estesi tra le attuali Campania e Molise).

• Seguivano i ducati di Napoli, Gaeta ed Amalfi, con una vita politico – amministrativa autonoma, anche se riconoscevano solo nominalmente l’autorità imperiale bizantina.

• La Sicilia, dall’VIII secolo, era nelle mani degli Arabi, dopo che ebbero scacciato i Bizantini nel 915.

Inoltre, il quadro politico si complicava per le aspirazioni che gli Imperi d’Occidente ( a partire da Carlo Magno) e d’Oriente nutrivano sul Mezzogiorno.


In questo frammentato e belligerante quadro politico si inserirono i primi cavalieri normanni, chiamati come mercenari.

Essi erano divisi in due bande:

1. La prima, capeggiata da Osmondo Drengot, e fu assoldata dal principe Guaimario di Salerno.

2. La seconda, capeggiata da Gilberto Buatère, e fu assoldata da Melo da Bari, un nobile barese di origine longobarda, ribelle al dominio bizantino ed alleato dei Longobardi.

Erano cavalieri forti e cadetti di famiglie feudali che, essendo stati esclusi dalla successione paterna, erano stati costretti all’avventura o al esercizio della “militia”; erano armati “alla pesante”, con il giaco (cotta di maglia di ferro usata nel Medioevo per proteggere il corpo in combattimento) di maglia di ferro, elmo, scudo a forma di mandorla, spada e lunga lancia, ed introdussero la tecnica di combattimento della carica della cavalleria.
...
(E. Cuozzo - "La cavalleria nel regno normanno di sicilia")
" ... In this fragmented and warring landscape entered the Norman knights that came as mercenaries ... "

(I translated only the underlined passage - I could risk myself in translating the rest, but with Signor Alpino around, I'm a bit ... uncomfortable )

IMHO, the Norman word as in "the Norman conquest of Sicily" it's a bit of a generic word, as there weren't only Normans. There were Lombards too, Provençals, and I suppose we can find others. Sicily was a sort of a far West, or a promissed land, were young, ambitious knights could (and some did) forge a new destiny, unlike at home.

Last edited by deaf tuner; February 14th, 2018 at 01:01 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 01:12 PM   #53

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulius View Post
Do we know if there was, in the case of Sicily, a Christian population that spoke Arabic, similar to the Mozarabs in the Iberian Peninsula?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil1904 View Post
Yes, absolutely.
This population of Arabic-speaking Christians is mentioned in the sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
I'm sure there were. Sicily hadn't (I think I'm right) experienced any radical doctrines like the Almohads, Almoravids or late Caliphate so no reason why to think there wouldn't be.
...
On that, You might be interested by:

Les souverains normands et les communautés culturelles en Sicile (in French)
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Old February 15th, 2018, 12:42 AM   #54
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@deaf

Your source is very interesting, it teaches us a lot about Sicilian society of that time. .
Indeed, our vision of the society of this epoch is always subject to an alteration due to our modern and inevitably, more or less subjective criteria.
It creates a methodological problem
This could give a thread of philosophy of the genre: Is history objective?

This source mentions that indeed, there were many communities in the county then kingdom of Sicily.
However, it is difficult to describe them precisely because they were mixed.
For example, if we try to define an individual's belonging to a community by his language, we can see that some people spoke two and sometimes three languages.
Moreover, there are never enough sources to make precise studies and these communities seem very shadowy and varied.
For example different kinds of Muslims, locals or Magrebin and even Greek-speaking Muslim populations are mentioned.

However, it can be said that they existed and that there was an exceptional tolerance with regard to what happened in the rest of Europe at the end of the 11th century and during the 12th century.
But this "exceptional tolerance" must be considered according to this period.
For instance, there was a double standard on taxation.The "Lombard populations" are mentioned as more taxed than the "Latin ones".
There were also tensions between communities, especially between Muslims and Christians.

That being said, I am surprised that this source mentions that there is little or no documentation on the Jewish community in Sicily.
It existed.
Here is another source (in French) that tells a little about their presence and status:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoi...icile#Histoire

I translated the quoted passage:
"In 1072, during the first crusade, Sicily fell into the hands of the Normans.The Jews are once again brought back to the island under the supremacy and jurisdiction of the Catholic Church.The Norman kingdom of Sicily lasted until 1194, then it fell into the hands of the Hohenstaufen family.However, thanks to the Normans,the Jews obtained protection and preservation, thus putting an end to the period of submission and domination by Arabs and Christians, characteristic of previous centuries.Jews and Christians are allowed to work in the public service, as long as they do not speak ill of the "homeland"."
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Old February 15th, 2018, 01:18 AM   #55

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
On that, You might be interested by:

Les souverains normands et les communautés culturelles en Sicile (in French)
Interesting
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Old February 15th, 2018, 05:56 AM   #56

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil1904 View Post
Yes, absolutely.
This population of Arabic-speaking Christians is mentioned in the sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
I'm sure there were. Sicily hadn't (I think I'm right) experienced any radical doctrines like the Almohads, Almoravids or late Caliphate so no reason why to think there wouldn't be…
Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
On that, You might be interested by:

Les souverains normands et les communautés culturelles en Sicile (in French)
Thank you for the answers. I also had that idea from some far and forgotten readings.

And thanks, deaf tuner. Quite relevant article for this thread.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 06:10 AM   #57

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deaf tuner View Post
Weren't the Lombards already (still) there when Normans came ?



" ... In this fragmented and warring landscape entered the Norman knights that came as mercenaries ... "

(I translated only the underlined passage - I could risk myself in translating the rest, but with Signor Alpino around, I'm a bit ... uncomfortable )

IMHO, the Norman word as in "the Norman conquest of Sicily" it's a bit of a generic word, as there weren't only Normans. There were Lombards too, Provençals, and I suppose we can find others. Sicily was a sort of a far West, or a promissed land, were young, ambitious knights could (and some did) forge a new destiny, unlike at home.
Regarding the Langobard who paied the Normans of Gilberto, he was from Bari and Bari [Barium] was in a Lombard domain [the dukedom of Benevento, Beneventum]. Lombards settled quite early in South Italy. They weren't able to take over Sicily. So that, when the occasion came ... local Lombard Dukes in South Italy didn't sleep.

P.S. that "landscape" doesn't give exactly the idea of what is a "quadro politico" ... it's a "political framework".

Last edited by AlpinLuke; February 15th, 2018 at 06:13 AM.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 07:43 AM   #58

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Regarding the difference between langobards from southern italy and Lombards from northern Italy, what were the real differences between the two?

And in regards to the latter, the lombards that were brought in from Northern Italy, what percentage of the army would they constitute in the years to come? From what I understand they became the majority on the island, if true, I would only assume that they would go on to be a lions share of the Knights and infantry, no?

I'm pretty much looking for as much information as humanly possible on the lombards of northern Italy who moved to sicily, especially in the military sphere. Please recommend me books, articles, passages and journals.

Thank you.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 08:17 AM   #59

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Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
...
I'm pretty much looking for as much information as humanly possible on the lombards of northern Italy who moved to sicily, especially in the military sphere. Please recommend me books, articles, passages and journals.

Thank you.
How's Your French and Italian ?
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Old February 15th, 2018, 11:44 AM   #60

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
Regarding the difference between langobards from southern italy and Lombards from northern Italy, what were the real differences between the two?

And in regards to the latter, the lombards that were brought in from Northern Italy, what percentage of the army would they constitute in the years to come? From what I understand they became the majority on the island, if true, I would only assume that they would go on to be a lions share of the Knights and infantry, no?

I'm pretty much looking for as much information as humanly possible on the lombards of northern Italy who moved to sicily, especially in the military sphere. Please recommend me books, articles, passages and journals.

Thank you.
Here we have to enter in deep in a "proto-Italian" matter: Lombard / Langobard.

Today a wide and reach region of Italy is called "Lombardia" [literally "the land of the Langobards"]. Milan is in Lombardia and today Italians who live in Lombardia are called "Lombards".

The historical problem is that regarding early Middle Ages "Langobard" and "Lombard" can be considered synonymous terms.

Lombard derived from Langobard and actually it became a wider term. While at the beginning it indicated the proper Germanic Langobard, after a couple of centuries it indicated all the persons living in the lands dominated by the Langobards.

So, when I talk about early Middle Ages I can use the two terms without great problems to indicate the Germanic tribes [the Dukedom of Beneventum was ruled by Langobards / Lombards ... it's the same].

But after the end of the Kingdom of the Langobards, the term "Lombards" became more specific and related to the persons from a region of Northern Italy.

When an Italian today hears the word "Lombardo" [Lombard], he thinks to the Lombards who faced the German Emperor, not to the original Germanic Langobards. But historians use the two terms, about previous periods, without differentiation.

I could say that the Germanic Langobards were Lombards, but that later Lombards were no more Langobards.

To be clear the Duke of Beneventum [from Bari] was Lombard in the sense of Langobard [he was member of a Germanic dynasty].
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