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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:07 PM   #41

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Originally Posted by Thibault View Post
An interesting view, Fiver. That quote - Warwick couldn't tell a goose from a capon - who came up with it and approximately when did it become widely known?
The quote comes from Hall's Chronicle, first published in 1542.

"The XV Yere of Kyng Henry the VII

Edward Plantagenet erle of Waricke, of whome ye haue heard before, beyng kept in the Towre almost fro his tender age, that is to saye, fro his first yere of the kyng to thys xv yere, out of al copany of me & sight of beastes, i so much that he coulde not descerne a Goose from a Capon."

Or in modern English - Edward Plantagenet, Earl of Warick, of whom ye have heard before, being kept in the Tower almost from his tender age, that is to say, from the first year of the king [Henry VII] to this 15th year, out of all company of men and sight of beasts, in so much that he could not discern a goose from a capon."

In context it seems to me that the figure of speech has nothing to do with Edward of Warwick's natural intellectual ability and instead is referring to the effects of 15 years of imprisonment, denied education or companionship. Another, though less likely interpretation would be that Edward of Warwick was scared witless at his imminent execution.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:05 PM   #42
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Thanks for the source, Fiver. I could remember the quote but not where it came from. On the surface, it is a strange quote to 'prove' someone was not mentally all there. I read somewhere once that it was really to do with the differences between men and women, rather than two types of poultry!

It took a long time for H7 to find a judicial method of removing Warwick. I can imagine that it was difficult to create the right circumstances when Warwick was locked up tight in the Tower for so many years. Putting Perkin Warbeck in the same area and 'allowing' them to meet eventually provided the means.

You have to admire the way in which H7 and H8 managed to remove any potential Yorkist rival by using the judicial process, even to the extent of executing Margaret Plantagenet when in her 60s.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 05:17 AM   #43

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiver View Post
The quote comes from Hall's Chronicle, first published in 1542.

"The XV Yere of Kyng Henry the VII

Edward Plantagenet erle of Waricke, of whome ye haue heard before, beyng kept in the Towre almost fro his tender age, that is to saye, fro his first yere of the kyng to thys xv yere, out of al copany of me & sight of beastes, i so much that he coulde not descerne a Goose from a Capon."

Or in modern English - Edward Plantagenet, Earl of Warick, of whom ye have heard before, being kept in the Tower almost from his tender age, that is to say, from the first year of the king [Henry VII] to this 15th year, out of all company of men and sight of beasts, in so much that he could not discern a goose from a capon."

In context it seems to me that the figure of speech has nothing to do with Edward of Warwick's natural intellectual ability and instead is referring to the effects of 15 years of imprisonment, denied education or companionship. Another, though less likely interpretation would be that Edward of Warwick was scared witless at his imminent execution.
Thank you for that source, It seemed that Henry Tudor had left this young man locked up in that tower without execution. Henry had already had accused Richard of murdering the princes, and he would be no better if he had executed Edward of Warwick as he had more claim to the throne.
I tend to agree that Edward was denied an active live and shut up in the tower so he was conveniently forgotten. But that was never forgotten, as they made up some trumped up excuse to execute him about escaping.
Just so Prince Arthur could marry Catherine of Argon, to which Catherine had later said something about that execution had been the cause of her bad luck.
Can someone find me the source please I have been looking everywhere for it. I don't even know who had cited it.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 09:37 PM   #44

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Originally Posted by Thibault View Post
Thanks for the source, Fiver. I could remember the quote but not where it came from. On the surface, it is a strange quote to 'prove' someone was not mentally all there. I read somewhere once that it was really to do with the differences between men and women, rather than two types of poultry!
Considering a goose is female and a capon is a castrated rooster, I had wondered the same, but looking at the full quote it seems less likely to be saying Warwick could not tell a man from a woman. If it does mean that, that might imply things about Warwick's relationship with the man known to history as Perkin Warbeck.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 07:13 AM   #45

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Originally Posted by Crystal Rainbow View Post
Thank you for that source, It seemed that Henry Tudor had left this young man locked up in that tower without execution. Henry had already had accused Richard of murdering the princes, and he would be no better if he had executed Edward of Warwick as he had more claim to the throne.
I tend to agree that Edward was denied an active live and shut up in the tower so he was conveniently forgotten. But that was never forgotten, as they made up some trumped up excuse to execute him about escaping.
Just so Prince Arthur could marry Catherine of Argon, to which Catherine had later said something about that execution had been the cause of her bad luck.
Can someone find me the source please I have been looking everywhere for it. I don't even know who had cited it.
I'm currently reading a biography on Catherine of Aragon and haven't seen any statement that Warwick's death was the source of her bad luck, but did read this:

Quote:
It was here that she started a long-term friendship with Margaret Pole, sister of the Earl of Warwick who had been killed in 1499 to clear the way for Catherine's marriage. ... The guilt she felt at Warwick's death weighed heavily on her, or so the Pole family thought. Catherine felt "very much bound to recompense and requite us for the detriment we received on her account." the Poles' son, Reginald recalled later.
P. 89.

Catherine of Aragon : the Spanish Queen of Henry VIII by Giles Tremlett.

Last edited by Clemmie; January 4th, 2013 at 07:19 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #46

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Originally Posted by Clemmie View Post
I'm currently reading a biography on Catherine of Aragon and haven't seen any statement that Warwick's death was the source of her bad luck, but did read this:



P. 89.

Catherine of Aragon : the Spanish Queen of Henry VIII by Giles Tremlett.
Thank you Clemmie
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