jonathanbw

Hi, I have been doing some research and I am at a loss to find two things, at least online.

1. Does anyone know what the procedure was to become a priest in England in the 12th to 13th centuries? Especially for a parish priest rather than a cardinal or bishop or any of that.

2. How much did Medieval England and Wales understand or know about Rome and Roman Britain? Did they know a lot, very little or was it all land of giants stuff like it was I believe for later Anglo Saxons?

Reading Bede, Gildas and Nennius it is obvious there is some understanding even pre-1000 but would that be church knowledge or general knowledge?

In other words would Welsh princes claim they descended from Roman leaders in Britain or would they have basically focused only on after Rome?

Any help on these would be appreciated. I am doing some research for a book on the period around the Magna Carte and I would love to understand better some of these things before starting to get to far along.

Gary

Hello jonathanbw, welcome to Historum.
As to the priest, if he was a village priest in a poor parish he would be of, and part of the peasant population. Firstly he would have been taught by his own parish priest the rudimentary ABC, or by a local clerk if the priest was too poor in Latin, and if the parents could afford a small fee. The boy would help the village priest in the church, a sort of apprentership, e he would learn the mass and other thing pertaining to church services. He would have to be literate to read the lessen and able to carry out church service if the priest was absent. when ready have attained one or all of the 4 minor orders. These were Door-Keeper, Reader, Exorcist, and Acolyte, generally summed up in the single term Clericus or Acolitus. (The Major Orders were Subdeacon, Deacon, and Priest) the aculit The .youth is still free to marry at this stage of his life journey, allow this would stop him becoming a priest.

The author of Piers Plowman, William Langland is supposed to have reached minor orders, a look at a biography may help get a feel for the stature and expectations of such men.

To gain higher orders the priest would have had to be schooled in Latin and give a good account of him self to the examiners, the local bishop or his representative, once passed the priest would be ordained.
This is a very simplified overview, I will try and flesh it out some more when I have time

DreamWeaver

As to the second point, it really depends on who you were now. The common folk and those at the lower end of the dsocial spectrum far removed from any persons/centres of learning are going to have no or minimal knowledge of Rome and the Romans and Roman Britain. Higher up the social chain and therefore with time/access to read and pursue education matter changes. These sirt of people would have been better informed, their knowledge much more 'accurate' than the simple things understood, if at all by common folk, where biblical stories would have accounted for a majority.

Medieval people in the 12th and 13th centuries are perfectly aware of Rome and its history/legacy, that it was there. They might no what it really was or any vast details, but it was there, it had been, they in their minds were the continuation of that. They didnt really distinguish themselves as being in a different epoch, middle ages is of course a term from a time after themiddle ages. They had access to its source material in translation in medieval latin and then in other languages from other places. Its structures and buildings were still present to be viewed, in runous state or cannibalised from though they may have been. Of course to what degree the dept of knowledge an individual had was really dependent upon social station.

DreamWeaver

Ah the old justification by ancient descent skit. Always popular, Geoffrey of Monmouth and the whole Brutus thing, prophecies of Merlin and all that. Geoffrey was Norman though if I recall. I dont recall any welsh princes claiming roman descent, though thats not to say they didnt. Likewise the concept of the welsh identifying with pre roman britons had also fallne by the way side as they had come to realise it wasnt really applicable.

Whats the Magna Carta research?

jonathanbw

I am considering writing a historical fiction based on a character who lives from 1175 to 1237.

I am also looking at doing a MA about medieval Wales so this has some relationship to that.

For Wales and England this is a very interesting period, last hurrah for Welsh independence and England so much internal upheaval as it heads towards an English nationalism so I am quite curious about it.

Thanks for everyone's help. As a proto historian I have been looking for a site like this for a while.

DreamWeaver

well good luck on the research and the MA

Lestamore

It is my understanding that the welsh royal houses mostly traced their lineage to the house of the Roman Usurper Magnus Maximus or else one of a a few prominant Romano Britains of the period just after Britain stopped being Roman like Cuneda and King Coel. I think most medieval Britains would be pretty familiar with the idea of Rome, especially because the idea of being heirs to the romans was still a prestige point pretty late. Also the church took over a lot of the importance of rome in terms of being the spiritual monopoly on power where once there was a political monopoly and they wouldn't have wanted people to forget about that.

Especially In wales I think people would have stuck to the legitimacy of Rome because their alternative was the legitimacy of the anglo-saxons. On the other hand, I would also guess that there was a kind of rome backlash because the church tried to put political changes in the context of the luxury, dissipation and pagan-ness of of romes classical background, and also the last century or so of roman rule in britain was full of usurpers, rebellions, failing currency(to the point of resorting to barter), and threats from all sides that as often as not were just not effectively addressed by the authorities at all. (Like the great conspiracy for example.) Also urbanization was pretty much a relic of romanization too, which set medeival england and wales apart from ireland early on for example.. I think people would have been pretty aware.