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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old March 8th, 2011, 03:00 PM   #11

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The main issue is that the jews were living in Islamic lands and thus they saw the Crusade as outside invaders, in medieval sieges pretty much all residences were called upon to defend their town / city anyway, so in the case of say... the massacer of Jerusalem, obviously the jews did fight against the Crusaders, it was the norm of the day. And at least on a relative level the Muslims tend to be less hostile to them.

In Spain, it depends on periods, by the Almohad / Almoravid period the regime turned more hostile towards the Jews and some began to leave for other places (like Tunisia). Though on a overall level it was more of the isolated event nature, espeically considering that in realtiy neither dynasty had full civil control over Andalusia, they were more or less just military overlords of independent city states.)
Not sure I agree with you entirely here my friend.

They were only 'Islamic lands' for 3 or 4 centuries before the first crusade, whereas in the full context of history they had been christian before that under the Roman empire from Constantinople, and so on back through history. There's this tendency to think of lands invaded by the crusaders as eternally islamic, which they clearly weren't. However I agree that one normally defends ones home town.

And the Almoravids deposed and/or killed most of the native muslim princes, including he of Sevilla who had invited them in. They couldn't stand their decadence and religious indifference, and the populace were generally receptive as they were not too keen on their high-taxing, high-spending rulers of the Taifas. Receptive until they found what they had let themselves in for that is.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 11:00 PM   #12
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Not sure I agree with you entirely here my friend.

They were only 'Islamic lands' for 3 or 4 centuries before the first crusade, whereas in the full context of history they had been christian before that under the Roman empire from Constantinople, and so on back through history. There's this tendency to think of lands invaded by the crusaders as eternally islamic, which they clearly weren't. However I agree that one normally defends ones home town.

And the Almoravids deposed and/or killed most of the native muslim princes, including he of Sevilla who had invited them in. They couldn't stand their decadence and religious indifference, and the populace were generally receptive as they were not too keen on their high-taxing, high-spending rulers of the Taifas. Receptive until they found what they had let themselves in for that is.
A few hundred years is more than a lot in the context of a man's life time, by the 12th century, and the context of Jerusalem for example was hardly a Christian vs Muslim thing, it was a Franks from some very far away place vs Palestinians, who just happen to be mostly Muslim with some Jews and Coptic Christians. the Coptic Christians also fought against the attackers anyway and were also killed.

The Almoravids desposed of the Taifas, but in actual administrative context Andalusia was still ran much in the same fashion during the Almoravid / Almohad period, aka they were ran by local noble class, based on the administrative system that is largely unchanged from the Taifa era (in fact, the system was even exported to the Maghreb, so the irony is that while the Almoravids promise to bring an end to the taifa rule in reality they ended up exporting it back to North Africa) with only occasional fits of intervention from the Berber Militaries. This is why that Andalusia very quickly collapsed back to Taifa rules when both the Almoravid and Almohads declined. because the system was never really removed, they merely changed the CEO or the company.
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Old March 9th, 2011, 04:57 AM   #13

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Just a though in a response to the OP and the main title of this thread. Franks at times when neccessary or required were also allies to their muslim neighbours, sometimes against other muslim rulers and sometimes against other christians.
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Old March 16th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #14

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A few hundred years is more than a lot in the context of a man's life time, by the 12th century, and the context of Jerusalem for example was hardly a Christian vs Muslim thing, it was a Franks from some very far away place vs Palestinians, who just happen to be mostly Muslim with some Jews and Coptic Christians. the Coptic Christians also fought against the attackers anyway and were also killed.

The Almoravids desposed of the Taifas, but in actual administrative context Andalusia was still ran much in the same fashion during the Almoravid / Almohad period, aka they were ran by local noble class, based on the administrative system that is largely unchanged from the Taifa era (in fact, the system was even exported to the Maghreb, so the irony is that while the Almoravids promise to bring an end to the taifa rule in reality they ended up exporting it back to North Africa) with only occasional fits of intervention from the Berber Militaries. This is why that Andalusia very quickly collapsed back to Taifa rules when both the Almoravid and Almohads declined. because the system was never really removed, they merely changed the CEO or the company.
Indeed the Almoravids descended into the sort of decadence they swore to remove.

And when you delve into the detail of 'united' Al Andalus under the earlier mighty Caliphate of Cordoba, it was still a patchwork of independent territories held together by various cajolling and politics, littered with rebellions or grumblings. North-eastern states, Barcelona, Pamplona or Zaragoza for example were closer geographically to the Carolingian Empire than to Cordoba, and had to tailor their politics accordingly.
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Old March 30th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #15
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About the relationship between muslims and jews in Spain, yes i've heard that jews helped the muslims in there conquest of the Visigoths.
wow, is a difficult theme to explain, i'm how spanish i can say that is not clear, there are a lot of different versions, i readed many history books about this but the information about the visigothic period is limited. there were jews working in the public administrations and commerce in both bands, with muslims and christian kingdoms when the islamic invasion was consolidated in the peninsula, even muslims with christians and jews together. These eight centuries of spanish history are complicated to explain because was an age of multiple changes depending of the course of the different war campaigns.
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Old March 31st, 2011, 11:52 PM   #16

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wow, is a difficult theme to explain, i'm how spanish i can say that is not clear, there are a lot of different versions, i readed many history books about this but the information about the visigothic period is limited. there were jews working in the public administrations and commerce in both bands, with muslims and christian kingdoms when the islamic invasion was consolidated in the peninsula, even muslims with christians and jews together. These eight centuries of spanish history are complicated to explain because was an age of multiple changes depending of the course of the different war campaigns.
Se lo que estas diciendo Enoneado. Pero es muy dificil explicar a la mayoria de la gente que no es tan sencil - en ninguna manera - como moros, cristianos y judios. Todos fueron espanoles, y muchos de los 'moros' (la mayoria) fueron conversos forzados del cristianismo despues de las invasiones arabes. Lo he estudiado en fondo y necesitaria libros enteros para explicarlo a mucha de la gente.
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Old April 1st, 2011, 12:38 AM   #17

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Interesting Question. It seems to be that way, dosen't it?
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Old April 1st, 2011, 12:58 AM   #18

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Interesting Question. It seems to be that way, dosen't it?
i really did not know much about the subject but now i sure do know something
thanks everyone
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Old May 1st, 2011, 12:54 PM   #19

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About the relationship between muslims and jews in Spain, yes i've heard that jews helped the muslims in there conquest of the Visigoths.
Yes, I seem to recall much the same.

It should be made clear that it was not that there was a close relationship between Muslims and Jews, but rather a close relationship between Jews and the Witizan Visigoths. The Witizans were Arianist Christians and were far more lenient in their treatment of Jews than the Catholic Rodrigans. Thus, when the Witizans required men to aid them in their coup d'etat, it was to North Africa with the financial support of the Jews that they turned.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 04:08 PM   #20

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An exception to this common good relations between Jews and Muslim was the struggle between the Khazar empire and the Caliphate.
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