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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old May 15th, 2011, 04:41 PM   #21

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During the Aragonese conquest of Mallorca, the Jews called "Chuetas" were without leaving an area of the city of Palma many years. It was called "es barri chueta" and covers a broad area of Old City, Jews were not related to anyone, not with Christians or with the few Muslims who remained in the Aragonese conquest, especially when Pedro el Cerimonioso the "Regne de Mallorques" back in 1350. The Jews controlled the finances and this led to riots against the Jews until they were ejected shortly after part of the Jewish population, others were given the option of Christianized but remain important to the Jewish population in the Balearic Islands. This could be extrapolated to the rest of Spain.
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Old January 25th, 2016, 10:28 AM   #22

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I guess most history books point to the fact that the Crusaders were killing both Jews and Muslims, actually some of the crusader's campaigns started with the slaughtering of the Jews in Europe before getting to the middle east.

so did the Jews and Muslims fight together against the
common enemy?
i know that the Jews did not have any organized force at that time, but did they participate in the fight against the crusaders in any way or form?

also i am curious to know of what the Jews of today think of their relationship with the Muslims in Spain and the middle east at that period of time?
Wow, I was looking up Muslim and Jewish relations on google and this thread was one of the first results that came up... Well it should be noted that during the lifetime of Muhammad...Muhammad on numerous occasions spoke about how the Jews of Medina are equal to the Muslims of Medina. Muhammad explained in his Treaty of Medina that Jews can take up arms to defend the city against attackers. Jews and Christians of Medina fought side by side with the Muslims.

As for the Crusades...Yes...Jews took up arms and fought alongside the Muslims. When Godfrey of Bouillon and a Group of Christians took the city of Jerusalem during the first Crusade...the Crusaders were fighting against not only Muslims..but also the Jewish and Eastern Christians who inhabited Jerusalem.

I cant speak for all Jews but I have read of some modern day Jews who have praised the Muslim majority empires of the past as places which were tolerate toward Jews.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:19 AM   #23

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Wow, I was looking up Muslim and Jewish relations on google and this thread was one of the first results that came up... Well it should be noted that during the lifetime of Muhammad...Muhammad on numerous occasions spoke about how the Jews of Medina are equal to the Muslims of Medina. Muhammad explained in his Treaty of Medina that Jews can take up arms to defend the city against attackers. Jews and Christians of Medina fought side by side with the Muslims.

As for the Crusades...Yes...Jews took up arms and fought alongside the Muslims. When Godfrey of Bouillon and a Group of Christians took the city of Jerusalem during the first Crusade...the Crusaders were fighting against not only Muslims..but also the Jewish and Eastern Christians who inhabited Jerusalem.

I cant speak for all Jews but I have read of some modern day Jews who have praised the Muslim majority empires of the past as places which were tolerate toward Jews.
It's very complex mate. Muslim empires differed - the very fundamental Almohads for example, totally eliminated jews in their territories in Spain (and presumably N Africa) by conversion, forcing them out or worse.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:59 AM   #24

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the muslims and jews collaborated together during the siege of jerusalem in the first crusade. ultimately they failed but they were able to hold of for quite a while
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Old January 27th, 2016, 10:20 AM   #25

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The Jewish community seems to have strived to be neutral during the Crusades, all in all. Some did take up arms to fight for the Muslim armies of the day; Salah ad-Din had Jews in his army, and Jews apparently composed a significant part of some Moorish armies.

I have never read about even a single Jew, or even Christian convert from Judaism, fighting alongside the Crusaders.
I sure there was a few, I mean there was a few Jews that were Knights in Europe too. If you know anything about middle ages society than you will fined out that there was Jews in both sides. Jews lived everywhere.

Last edited by Landsknecht; January 27th, 2016 at 10:24 AM.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 12:49 AM   #26

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I sure there was a few, I mean there was a few Jews that were Knights in Europe too. If you know anything about middle ages society than you will fined out that there was Jews in both sides. Jews lived everywhere.
Surely so.

I've seen documents (book, historia de los judeos de Oviedo) showing the enlistment documents/pay for jewish crossbowmen or other soldiers in the armies at the time (roughly around 1200).

It's unlikely that someone would have stopped them from getting on the boat with their 'knight/Senor'.

Man's gotta earn a living somehow
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Old January 28th, 2016, 07:53 AM   #27

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It's very complex mate. Muslim empires differed - the very fundamental Almohads for example, totally eliminated jews in their territories in Spain (and presumably N Africa) by conversion, forcing them out or worse.
Hi Johnincornwall,

Agreed on the point that some Muslim empires were intolerant toward its minorities.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 08:22 AM   #28

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I sure there was a few, I mean there was a few Jews that were Knights in Europe too.
This was probably not the case though during the First Crusade. Christian scholars of the middle ages report that during the 1st Crusade that there were Crusader attacks on Jews while en route to the Holy Land. That doesn't make me believe that all Crusaders of the first Crusade were against Jews, but rather some of the Crusaders of the first Crusade were against Jews.

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If you know anything about middle ages society than you will fined out that there was Jews in both sides. Jews lived everywhere.
Agreed here. Pope Sylvester II for example was a Pope who had tolerate views of Non Catholics. Jews did live all over Europe during the middle ages...but there were also numerous expulsions such the expulsion of all Jews as ordered by King Edward I of England(known also as Longshanks) as well as the expulsion of Jews from Spain as ordered by King Ferdinand II . Though I suppose there could have also easily been some areas in England where the rule of kicking out Jews as ordered by Edward I was not enforced. Kicking the Jews out of England as Edward I ordered, and as King Ferdinand II ordered was IMO wrong, these were IMO actions that went against the teachings of Christianity. Now I will also say, this notion that when Jews were kicked out of Spain that the financial institutions of Spain suffered is a viewpoint I do not agree with. This viewpoint if anything would make non Jews view Jews as folks who want to control the banks. Yes, don't get me wrong some Jews have had success in the banking industry throughout the middle ages, but so did Christians, Atheists and Muslims have success in the banking industry throughout the middle ages.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 08:30 AM   #29

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Surely so.

I've seen documents (book, historia de los judeos de Oviedo) showing the enlistment documents/pay for jewish crossbowmen or other soldiers in the armies at the time (roughly around 1200).

It's unlikely that someone would have stopped them from getting on the boat with their 'knight/Senor'.

Man's gotta earn a living somehow
Thats interesting, I could see this happening considering the time period.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 09:24 AM   #30
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It is a popular misconception that the Christians in the Middle Ages were intolerance and that they supposedly “woke up” out of nothing in the Renaissance and then became tolerance. That is a popular misconception from prior WW2 in which today is rejected by the vast scholars on Medieval Europe for obvious reasons, and in which I know many Islamo propagandists who want to maintain that illusion whatsoever when they are suspended indefinitely and create new usernames with Christians symbol to hide their Islamic agenda.

Medieval Europe’s Christians fairly tolerated Muslims and Jews as underclass citizens when they ruled over them depending on the circumstances and some factors pretty much as the Muslims otherwise did. Like for instance in Spain, until the last phase, we have examples where Christian’s kingdoms tolerated non-Muslims while the Muslim Spain’s Almoravids and Almohads which ruled for a reign of 250 years were heavily intolerance and cruel like Isabella and Ferdinand.

In Crusader States we have first hand source from the Muslim traveler, Ibn Jubayr, who wrote that Muslims were better of being ruled by the Crusaders rather than the Muslims.

Muhammad, the prophet of the Muslims, was certainly not tolerance as he distributed Jewish women to his army and picked the most attractive booty for himself alongside forced converted the rest, and not to mention that he expelled non-Muslims from the Arabian Peninsula during his deathbed. – Muhammed can certainly be put in the same league as Isabella/Ferdinand, Raynald De Chatillon and the Almoravids rulers.

As a student of history we have read on Medieval Spain, Crusaders States and even Byzantine Empire under Macedonian and Comnenians days when they ruled over the Muslims. Nothing suggests that the Christians were specific cruel comparing to the Muslims in the Middle Ages when they ruled over each others. Rather it was complex and it really varied depending what time and locations on the map.

Just because it was a popular misconception once from prior WW2 simply doesn’t imply it is facts today among the scholars on Medieval history.

Last edited by El Cid; January 28th, 2016 at 09:27 AM.
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