Widdekind

Islamic silver started to flow into Germany, in the 8th century AD:

Now, in the early 8th century AD, Muslim Moors seized Spain (711 AD), and fought for France (Poitiers, 732 AD). Thus, checked by Charles Martel, yet seeking to subdue their European opponents, the Muslim Moors had motive to bring barbarians to bear, at the 'back' of their Frankish foes. And, possessing a political presence in the place, the Muslims had means & opportunity, to trade, too. Ipso facto, Latin logic, qui bono ?, would warn that Muslims might foment fighting, vs. France, from the 'rear', to distract & destabilize the Christian Carolingians, away from the 'front'. And more, the escalating conflicts, between Christian France, and heathen Germany, coincide closely, with that flow of funds from Islamic lands -- for instance, the Frisian-Frankish War, in the mid 8th century AD; and the Saxon Wars, in the late 8th century AD. From them flowed the Viking Wars (8th-11th centuries AD), which did 'distract' & 'redirect' western European power projection, towards Europe, and away from Islamic lands, for the following 300 years.

Lawnmowerman

So what your hypothesising is that the Muslims bribed the Vikings and Pagan GErmans to attack France. Interesting and certainly possible. Although i find the idea that they funded the entire 300 year viking was a little far fetched.

Maybe initially they were recieving payments but after a while they got socaught up in fighting each other it was no longer necessary

Widdekind

Over 700 years later, the Ottoman empire furnished funds, to promote the Protestants, in northern Germany, to weaken the Hapsburg empire, with which the Ottomans shared a hostile border, further south (HC Ottoman Empire DVD). Again, Islamic monies backed 'back-stabbers' (as it were), promoting opposition, to an opponent, in their relative 'rear', thereby forcing their foes into a two-front war. And, indeed, the Protestant schism, in 1517 AD, sparked escalating conflicts, culminating in the Thirty Years War (1618-48 AD), whose effects persist until the present period. These happenings hampered Hapsburg opposition, to Ottoman expansion into Europe, such as at the Sieges of Vienna, in 1529 AD, and again in the 17th century AD*.

* The Protestant break from Rome, began in Saxony -- the same Saxony into which flowed Islamic silver, in the 8th century AD. Such might imply, a persistent pattern, of foreign influence, deep into Europe, during the Wars of Religion era.

Frank81

Interesting thread, it should be published in the Medieval forum.

The flow of coins from the Islamic world toward Europe was surelly because trade, and probably due to trade through eastern Europe. Since the 8th century Varangians were trading with the slavic nations opposite to Scandinavia, and in the early 9th century a highly profitable trade was stablished with the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea through the Russian rivers. In the opposite side of Europe, Al-Andalus traded with christians basically importing slaves, Verdun for example was a very important market for the slave trade between slavic territories and muslim Spain. Another way that these coins could go to the north was because sacking in the Muslim coasts, since the mid 9th century several viking fleets attacked Al-Andalus and Christian Spain.

I don't think that these moneys were in Viking lands because of a destabillization policy. Al-Andalus had enough problems inside for such policy, allowing private piracy in France and Italy but not state funded ones, actually, the first public funded fleet in Al-Andalus was built to face the Viking menace. The Caliphate in the east had enough problems too with the Byzantines and Khazars to perform a so vast policy of funding against the Frankish kingdom, though this could happen with the Bulgars against the Byzantines.

Widdekind

Ottomans, fighting in from the front, promoted 'Pagan' and 'Protestant' opponents, of their principal opposition

From 1450 - 1700 AD, across Europe, hundreds of thousands of Europeans were accused, of conducting hostile, anti-societal, actions. Their actions were attributed to Paganry -- to wit, "Witchcraft", and "making pacts with the Devil" (A&E Biography - Satan VHS). And, in the early 16th century AD, across Europe, millions of Europeans broke from Rome, becoming Protestants. That anti-Roman religion, was backed, by the Ottoman empire, to undermine their principal European opponent, impeding the progress of Islam, into Europe -- after the fall, of the eastern Roman empire, with the conquest of Constantinople, in 1453 AD (HC Ottoman empire DVD). Taken together, these facts suggest a sophisticated Islamic Super-Strategy, to 'weaken from within', even as Europe was 'besieged from beyond'.



Deeper historical context ?

Through the 3rd - 2nd centuries BC, Carthage waged war with its rival, Rome. Carthage escalated the caliber of the conflict, to Total War. For, Carthage intrigued with the once-wealthy Etruscans, who had been allies of Carthage for several centuries, and whom Rome recently had come to conquer. Such is suggested, by an Etruscan cultural revival, closely coinciding, with the onset, of the strife. For instance, "the first resumption of Gladiatorial combats in Rome, after its liberation from the Etruscans by the Republic in 510 BC, was in 264 BC", on the eve of the First Punic War. Therefore,

This can be construed, as an 'eastern culture context', underlying the later Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, and ensuing invasion, of the interior, of Europe. That is, "eastern warfare" is waged to totality, employing all means open to influence, including civilian populations 'behind the lines', as well as 'my enemy's enemy'. And, this same suite of sophisticated strategies, has been employed, for many millennia*.

* 400 years before the Muslim Moors seized Spain, Roman emperor Maximian battled Moorish pirates, who were harassing Iberian shores (c.300 AD). And, in the ancient world, "there was little distinction, between piracy & warfare" ([DK Eyewitness] Pirate, p.8]). Thus, the Muslim Moors' invasion of Iberia, is but a 'branch', stemming from deeper 'roots'.

Widdekind

Islamic 'Super-Siege' of European continent

The early Roman empire seemingly 'out-sourced' its agriculture, to north Africa & Egypt. And, after several centuries, of reliance on foreign-grown crop imports, the late Roman empire had become 'addicted' [technical term] to the same. Upon conquering these crop-rich regions, in the 7th century AD, expanding Islam exploited this 'their-well-is-outside-of-their-fortress' phenomenon, to 'Super-Siege' the whole European continent:

The subsequent seizure, of Spain, in the early 8th century AD, by the Muslim Moors, coincides with the collapse, of crop taxes, in neighboring post-Roman Gaul:

Now, the Viking raids, by simultaneously seizing specie, from those same Roman Catholic-controlled lands, broke the back, of the European economy, with devastating consequences, for the 'Super-Sieged' European peoples:

All such suggests, that expanding Islam employed a siege-like strategy, to weaken & undermine, their Christian competitors -- whilst employing pagan (Viking) 'enemies of the enemy', to do additional damages.

HeirofAlexander

never us vikings never acceot bribes.... ;P

ghostexorcist

Here is some information you may find useful. It comes from The Multiple Dirhems of Medieval Afghanistan (1973) by Michael Mitchiner:

The existence of these multiple dirhems and the contemporary debasement of all Samanid silver currency are two manifestations of the severe silver shortage that began to affect this region in the early tenth century. The cause of this silver shortage had nothing to do with the silver mines which were flourishing but it was instead caused by the massive outflow of silver along the Viking-Khwarezmian trade route in the direct of Scandinavia. The manning of the Viking-Khwarezmian trade route from the Oxus to Scandinavia during the period of [circa] A.H. 270-370 ([circa] 883-981) lead to one of the most massive, if not the most important, translocations of coinage that has occurred (p. 7).

The Vikings of Sweden (Varangians) began to develop their Central European trade during the eighth century. Traveling up the Dvina and other rivers from their mouths on the east Baltic coast the Vikings founded trading settlements among the Slav tribes during the second half of the ninth century. The most important of these settlements became the towns of Novgorod and Kiev. Viking traders penetrated further south-east down the courses of major Russian rivers, the Diepr, the Don and the Volga. The first two rivers led them to the Black Sea whence they traded with and raided Byzantium from 860. The Volga led them to the Caspian which they had already traversed by 880…when they raided Gurgan on the southern-east Caspian coast; territory of the Ziyarid dynasts. Subsequently the Vikings traded with and made raids on Tabaristan and Gurgan, along the southern and south-eastern shores of the Caspian, during the course of a number of decades. But whatever may have been the extent of this Viking trade with Iran the main profit in bullion that Vikings took home from the Volga-Caspian-Oxus region to Scandinavia consisted of silver coin from the Samanid realm. In this context the Vikings cannot be considered in isolation but must be placed alongside the traders from Khwarezm and both these peoples should be seen in relation to the kingdom of the Volga Bulghars where much of the Viking-Kwharezmian trade took place (p. 8).

The Volga Bulghars were a people of Central Asian origin distinct from the various Turkish tribes that encircled their lands on three sides. These Volga Bulghars who settled around the middle reaches of the Volga River were related to various other groups of Bulghars who moved further west, including those Bulghars who settled along the Danube. The kingdom of the Volga Bolghars enjoyed a period of prosperity during the century when the Viking-Kwarezmian trade route through their land remained operative, that is from about …[AD. 883-980]. The Volga Bulghars assumed Moslem culture and religion imported from the south just as more westerly groups of Bulghars acquired western culture and Christianity from Byzantium. The kinThe trade route along which so many Samanid dirhems traveled from the Samanid realm to Scandinavia involved two major trading peoples who realms of influence met on the middle Volga in the land of the Volga Bulghars. But this Viking-Kwarezmian trade route from the Oxus to Scandinavia with its major entrepot in the land of the Volga Bulghars flourished for a period of about a century only. It became a major trade route about AD. 883 or a few years earlier and fell into disuse during the years around AD. 981 though there are later reports of Viking expeditions, such as that of Ynghar, to the ‘Silk Land’ (Probably Khwarezm).

[…]

The decline of the trade route at the end of the tenth century was in part a manifestation of the general decline in Viking trade which now tended to be replaced by Viking colonization and in part it was a consequence of the increasing power wielded by Russian principalities, especially Novgorod and Kiev, whose territory straddled the route and whose cultural and commercial links were with Byzantium rather than with the Moslem world (p. 11).gdom of the Volga Bulghars played host to the merchants of Khwarezm who established trading posts in their land and during its period of prosperity also accepted trading posts established by Viking traders (p. 10).

Frank81

Very well explained ghosterxorcist We agree there, that's the reason of those huge amounts of money in Scandinavia and central Europe.

randthomassantor

I recently read that book, i thought it was awesome