 | | Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries |
October 30th, 2011, 09:32 AM
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#31 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Aug 2010 From: Central Macedonia Posts: 17,763 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax So did Tzimiskes.
Ever heard of Manzikert? |
Tsimiskis (in Greek), was not nicknamed as Βουλγαροκτόνος = Boulgaroktonos. He didn't subjugate all of Bulgaria either.
What about Manzikert? It's irrelevant. | | |
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October 30th, 2011, 09:38 AM
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#32 | | Megas Domestikos
Joined: Dec 2009 From: Canada Posts: 2,487 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Thessalonian Tsimiskis (in Greek), was not nicknamed as Βουλγαροκτόνος = Boulgaroktonos. He didn't subjugate all of Bulgaria either.
What about Manzikert? It's irrelevant. | Tzimiskes (in Byzantine Greek) was not nicknamed "the Bulgar-slayer", but neither was Basil until the Angelid period.
Basil attempts to protect the freeholding soldiers against the large landowners worked, but it completely broke the capacity of the thematic system. The flexible and defence-oriented system that kept the Arabs out was not present to stop the Turks.
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October 30th, 2011, 11:07 AM
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#33 | | Historian
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 2,587 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax So did Tzimiskes.
Ever heard of Manzikert? | True about Tsimiskes; but he was emperor only for 7 years while Basil II for 49.
Manzikert? That battle that was won by treachery?
or Myriokefalon? where the Byzantines beat the Seljuks in the same place the following year?
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October 30th, 2011, 11:16 AM
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#34 | | Megas Domestikos
Joined: Dec 2009 From: Canada Posts: 2,487 | Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon True about Tsimiskes; but he was emperor only for 7 years while Basil II for 49.
Manzikert? That battle that was won by treachery? | The question is not the outcome of the battle, but the flexible nature or lack thereof of the now-broken thematic system. Even though the grade of the average thematic soldier during the early Arab invasions was quite low, the fact was that they held every hilltop and harrassed the Arabs constantly. Given that most of the Arab campaigns were simply major raids, they could not besiege every little akropolis fortress, making permanent gains west of the Tauros extremely difficult. When the Seljuk Turks arrived, this system did not exist anymore. Those soldiers had not been called up for the better part of a century, and Basil's centralization of power on Constantinople ensured that the now-powerless local aristocracies had no reason to stay and try to hold the fortresses. They simply returned to Constantinople. Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon or Myriokefalon? where the Byzantines beat the Seljuks in the same place the following year? | Myriokephalon took place over a century later in a vastly different context.
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October 30th, 2011, 11:28 AM
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#35 | | Historian
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 2,587 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax
Myriokephalon took place over a century later in a vastly different context. | I just brought it up as a reference in relation to Manzikert, because a lot of people think that these two battles destroyed the Byzantines.
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October 30th, 2011, 12:22 PM
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#36 | | Citizen
Joined: Oct 2011 Posts: 43 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax Tzimiskes (in Byzantine Greek) was not nicknamed "the Bulgar-slayer", but neither was Basil until the Angelid period.
Basil attempts to protect the freeholding soldiers against the large landowners worked, but it completely broke the capacity of the thematic system. The flexible and defence-oriented system that kept the Arabs out was not present to stop the Turks. | From what I know, thematic system and military were based on those freeholdnig soldiers, and only Angeloi' and Comneni' neglect of theme system which caused feudalization of the Empire broke Byzantine defences.
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October 30th, 2011, 03:54 PM
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#37 | | Megas Domestikos
Joined: Dec 2009 From: Canada Posts: 2,487 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Picard From what I know, thematic system and military were based on those freeholdnig soldiers, and only Angeloi' and Comneni' neglect of theme system which caused feudalization of the Empire broke Byzantine defences. | The thematic system was in utter shambles when Alexios took the throne. He seems to have brought an end to the entire system through his land legislation. I'm not too familiar with the exact legal status of the soldiers during the Komnenian period, nor am I familiar with all of the recent scholarship. The older assumption was that the pronioa, a sort of feudal land grant took over as the main means of providing troops for the government. As I understand it, it is now believed that the pronoia existed much longer than previous believed, but was not as pervasive. I am not aware of any detailed study of army recruitment under the Komnenoi - Paul Magdalino touches on it in his book on Manuel and one of his articles, and I haven't read Bartusis' arguments on the late Byzantine army in any depth. I have not yet read all of Birkenmeier's book, so I can't comment on that, either.
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October 30th, 2011, 05:14 PM
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#38 | | bloody
Joined: Apr 2011 From: Sarmatia Posts: 3,592 |
For me Iustinian, for ordering Trebonianus making Corpus Iuris Civilis
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November 5th, 2011, 09:59 AM
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#39 | | Archivist
Joined: Jun 2011 From: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 123 |
I've always been interested in Irene of Athens, Empress from797 to 802. Not the greatest, but that's not what the OP asked. I find her life and rule very interesting. Ended Iconoclasm and I'm thankful for that. (I'm too much of an artist to worry about the debate of idolatry.) I still wonder what would have happened if she had gone through the plans of marrying her son to the daughter of Charlemagne.
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November 5th, 2011, 11:50 AM
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#40 | | Historian
Joined: May 2011 From: Macedonia, Eastern Roman Empire Posts: 1,652 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax I'd blame it on Byzantine chauvinism, instead. Jonathan Harris has argued that the economic concessions that Alexios gave actually increased the wealth of the empire, because it brought more Italians to the east. The removal of the kommerkion did not really hurt the coffers with the increased traffic because they simply weren't charging it twice anymore. They were still charging it: the Byzantine merchants who were dealing with the Venetians were still paying it, and that cost was undoubtedly reflected back upon the prices the Italians paid. The Komnenian emperors seem to have been richer in general and the Empire more economically viable after Alexios reformed the currency. Urban life appears again, populations rise substantially, the gold standard coin which had been in serious decline in the eleventh century was restored to its former glory. | Taxation and custom duties were some of the major revenues of the Empire. The gradual rise of the power of the Venetian, Genoese, and other merchants was catastrophic, but the results were shown after the Komnenian period mostly, although the process started during it (not only in Constantinople but various parts of the Empire). Not only they were free from taxes, but they managed to control the Byzantine seas later, including the Black sea at last, instead of the Byzantines.
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Last edited by Yaunâ; November 5th, 2011 at 11:55 AM.
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