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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old October 5th, 2013, 10:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Serbian armor from early 15th century.
This rather looks like late 15th (late 1400s) / early 16th (early 1500s) century.
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Old October 5th, 2013, 02:15 PM   #33
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There is a byzantine armor that no one's ever spoken about, mentions it, or doesn't know it still existed, since lamellar always dominates the conversation, and this armour has been used by the ancient Greeks and classical romans, and it has still been in use, it is called the "Thorax Heroikon" or just put it simply, the Musculata cuirass, i mean the only and original plate armour that is most famous in all of Greco-Roman antiquities, found in art and mosiacs. But since only those of great rank gets to wear these, and only the imperial guard (not the varangian guard, by which they'd prefer lamellar) are the only organization that uses these rare armour. And the question is, What does the byzantine muscle cuirass even looked like, i only read about them in books, just never seen what it looks like. Do one of you know of this, and if do, what does it look like and what are the designs of it? Since muscled armour used by the Greeks looks...well, we all know what it looks like, a muscled cuirass. Whereas the classical roman lorica musculata -a continuation off and adaptation of the greek variant- used by the roman dictators and emperors, some worn by the praetorians and by generals. But for the byzantine Romans, must be quite fascinating to see, especially that it is a relic older than the roman empire itself.

Well, what do you think of this, and why, couse it'll be something that byzantine historians in the Greco-Roman field knows of this.
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Old October 6th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Azarius Balios View Post
There is a byzantine armor that no one's ever spoken about, mentions it, or doesn't know it still existed, since lamellar always dominates the conversation, and this armour has been used by the ancient Greeks and classical romans, and it has still been in use, it is called the "Thorax Heroikon" or just put it simply, the Musculata cuirass, i mean the only and original plate armour that is most famous in all of Greco-Roman antiquities, found in art and mosiacs. But since only those of great rank gets to wear these, and only the imperial guard (not the varangian guard, by which they'd prefer lamellar) are the only organization that uses these rare armour. And the question is, What does the byzantine muscle cuirass even looked like, i only read about them in books, just never seen what it looks like. Do one of you know of this, and if do, what does it look like and what are the designs of it? Since muscled armour used by the Greeks looks...well, we all know what it looks like, a muscled cuirass. Whereas the classical roman lorica musculata -a continuation off and adaptation of the greek variant- used by the roman dictators and emperors, some worn by the praetorians and by generals. But for the byzantine Romans, must be quite fascinating to see, especially that it is a relic older than the roman empire itself.

Well, what do you think of this, and why, couse it'll be something that byzantine historians in the Greco-Roman field knows of this.
There are some wallpaintings, though i can not find very well photos.
So we can see the wall painting of the military saint Procopios, to a Byzantine church of the 12th century dedicated to the Virgin Kosmosotira [="World-Saviour"], to the town of Feres in Greece. Please translate from greek to english the link http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Θεοτόκος_η_Κοσμοσώτειρα

Click the image to open in full size.

The church is the church of the erstwhile Monastery Panagia Kosmosotira Viras, founded by sebastokrator Isaac Komnenos (son of Alexios I Komnenos )
Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

In 1151/1152, Isaac founded the cenobitic monastery of Kosmosoteira ("World-Saviour") at Pherae. The monastery was built as his residence and final resting place; Isaac wrote the monastery's typikon himself, leaving extensive estates, including entire villages and castles to it in Thrace.
Isaac is also depicted in the Chora Church in Constantinople, which he extensively rebuilt. The Chora Church was also the initial location of Isaac's tomb, before he had it transferred to the Kosmosoteira monastery.
Today from all the complex of buildings of the monastery, only the church's world-saving, part of the walls and towers.

==========

Propably the face of St. Procopios (with the muscle cuirass), appears the Andronikos Komnenos, sebastokrator, also son of Alexios I Komnenos.
Andronikos Komnenos died in battle 1117 (Battle of Philomelion). (please the descedants of
Alexios_I_Komnenos Alexios_I_Komnenos

So the muscle thorax belongs to a member of the Roman Imperial family member.

=================

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
^The muscle cuirass on left, see how it conected with the down part of the armor.

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

''...Military forms between the arched openings of the north and south walls have physiognomic characteristics of Alexios I Komnenos and his three sons: John II, Isaac takers Kosmosotira, and Andronicus, as we know from other depictions...'' translated from greek to english from the link

----------------

Last edited by ANAX; October 6th, 2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old October 6th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANAX View Post
There are some wallpaintings, though i can not find very well photos.
So we can see the wall painting of the military saint Procopios, to a Byzantine church of the 12th century dedicated to the Virgin Kosmosotira [="World-Saviour"], to the town of Feres in Greece. Please translate from greek to english the link http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Θεοτόκος_η_Κοσμοσώτειρα

Click the image to open in full size.

The church is the church of the erstwhile Monastery Panagia Kosmosotira Viras, founded by sebastokrator Isaac Komnenos (son of Alexios I Komnenos )
Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

In 1151/1152, Isaac founded the cenobitic monastery of Kosmosoteira ("World-Saviour") at Pherae. The monastery was built as his residence and final resting place; Isaac wrote the monastery's typikon himself, leaving extensive estates, including entire villages and castles to it in Thrace.
Isaac is also depicted in the Chora Church in Constantinople, which he extensively rebuilt. The Chora Church was also the initial location of Isaac's tomb, before he had it transferred to the Kosmosoteira monastery.
Today from all the complex of buildings of the monastery, only the church's world-saving, part of the walls and towers.

==========

Propably the face of St. Procopios (with the muscle cuirass), appears the Andronikos Komnenos, sebastokrator, also son of Alexios I Komnenos.
Andronikos Komnenos died in battle 1117 (Battle of Philomelion). (please the descedants of Alexios I Komnenos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the muscle thorax belongs to a member of the Roman Imperial family member.

=================

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

^The muscle cuirass on left, see how it conected with the down part of the armor.



Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size.

''...Military forms between the arched openings of the north and south walls have physiognomic characteristics of Alexios I Komnenos and his three sons: John II, Isaac takers Kosmosotira, and Andronicus, as we know from other depictions...'' translated from greek to english from the link


----------------


You never fail to amaze me Anax, and i didn't knew that the mobastee is Isaac komnenos resting place, and kinda surprise that the ottomans didn't converted it into a mosque. Not only that, but the muscle cuirass looks slightly different from the classical Greek and Roman musculata.

Last edited by Azarius Balios; October 6th, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
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Old October 6th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
That Polish winged hussar armour is certainly an eyeful. I think if i was fighting against them I'd be dead by the time I stopped being amazed...very cool armour...I like it.
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Old October 6th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Azarius Balios View Post
You never fail to amaze me Anax, and i didn't knew that the mobastee is Isaac komnenos resting place, and kinda surprise that the ottomans didn't converted it into a mosque. Not only that, but the muscle cuirass looks slightly different from the classical Greek and Roman musculata.

Click the image to open in full size.

infact the ottomans indeed converted it into a mosque!
ottomans had covered the wall paintings with lime/plaster, as usual.

i translate you : ''... The Virgin Kosmosoteira(=world saviour) monastery founded by Isaac Comnenus in Vira (this is the current prefecture of Evros Feres) near the (river) Evros Delta. Probable founding date is in 1152.
The monastery , which is considered one of the finest examples of art Constantinople in Greece , operated until the mid-14th century. Around 1355 the villagers had taken refuge in the fortified precinct settled permanently , forcing the monks to abandon it .
Later it was occupied by the Ottomans , who transformed the Catholic into a mosque , which became the nucleus of the settlement of (housing of) Feres .
Click the image to open in full size.
In 1940 work began maintenance and has since operated as a Christian church . In the last few years is the official seat of the World Association Thracians .
The inner surfaces of the walls of the church from certain height and above, and the surfaces of the domes covered with frescoes.
After removing the plaster with which the (muslim) Turks covers , can be seen today lower two episcopal processions that end up in episcopal forms of the sacred .
Above on a smaller scale follow prophets and forms of the Old Testament. Logs similar forms covering higher and drums in and transept .
In the central region of the southwestern corner dome of the existing remains of the old mural can be concluded that there was a representation of Christ .
While the corresponding region of Northwest dome survived , probably more than the old location of the burial monument of founder Isaac Komnenos , an ethereal representation of the Virgin Mary.

It is not known whether this depiction of Mary in conjunction with the corresponding of Christ is the same as described in sebastokrator Typical of " ... with a lot of wonderful art have pictured the Yperagathos Christ and the Mother of God and Kosmosotira(=World saviour) have not depicted in such a way that appear to be vivid images and a little lacking to talk sweet to those who look ... " .
General forms of murals presented squares with round faces and simple shading , an excessive realism , something that usually characterizes the frescoes .
Over the band with episcopal processions between small lower windows of the drums of the transept , distinguished performances military saints according to a newer study shows the family of takers ...''

Click the image to open in full size.

=========

Last edited by ANAX; October 6th, 2013 at 09:35 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2013, 06:33 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANAX View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

infact the ottomans indeed converted it into a mosque!
ottomans had covered the wall paintings with lime/plaster, as usual.

i translate you : ''... The Virgin Kosmosoteira(=world saviour) monastery founded by Isaac Comnenus in Vira (this is the current prefecture of Evros Feres) near the (river) Evros Delta. Probable founding date is in 1152.
The monastery , which is considered one of the finest examples of art Constantinople in Greece , operated until the mid-14th century. Around 1355 the villagers had taken refuge in the fortified precinct settled permanently , forcing the monks to abandon it .
Later it was occupied by the Ottomans , who transformed the Catholic into a mosque , which became the nucleus of the settlement of (housing of) Feres .
Click the image to open in full size.
In 1940 work began maintenance and has since operated as a Christian church . In the last few years is the official seat of the World Association Thracians .
The inner surfaces of the walls of the church from certain height and above, and the surfaces of the domes covered with frescoes.
After removing the plaster with which the (muslim) Turks covers , can be seen today lower two episcopal processions that end up in episcopal forms of the sacred .
Above on a smaller scale follow prophets and forms of the Old Testament. Logs similar forms covering higher and drums in and transept .
In the central region of the southwestern corner dome of the existing remains of the old mural can be concluded that there was a representation of Christ .
While the corresponding region of Northwest dome survived , probably more than the old location of the burial monument of founder Isaac Komnenos , an ethereal representation of the Virgin Mary.

It is not known whether this depiction of Mary in conjunction with the corresponding of Christ is the same as described in sebastokrator Typical of " ... with a lot of wonderful art have pictured the Yperagathos Christ and the Mother of God and Kosmosotira(=World saviour) have not depicted in such a way that appear to be vivid images and a little lacking to talk sweet to those who look ... " .
General forms of murals presented squares with round faces and simple shading , an excessive realism , something that usually characterizes the frescoes .
Over the band with episcopal processions between small lower windows of the drums of the transept , distinguished performances military saints according to a newer study shows the family of takers ...''

Click the image to open in full size.

=========
I just imagine it didn't sit too well with the roman citizens, seeing a landmark like this being converted into a mosque, and plastering the artwork must pissed-off alot off rebels and resistance fighters, that wanted to obliterate the ottomans. I mean it's kinda ironic that all these famous byzantine churches and monasteries that have been turned into mosques failed to attract and convert any Christians just stood there, that only ottoman Turkish nobles probably came to pray. I mean i don't know why they converted so many churches, seems so overkill. And if only, but a total failure on the ottomans part.
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