Anna James

The medieval Bulgarians called the Byzantines "Romei" but that meant "Greek", not "Roman"; in fact only last year I learned that Romei actually means "Romans" believe it or not, I thought it meant "Greek"....
This summer when I go to Bulgaria I have to get some of my books from there, so I can prove that. Here I have only one book, in Bulgarian, called "Short History After the Reign of Mauricius", by Patriarch Nicephor from Constantonol /this is my poor attempt of translation/ and in it, on pg.52, talking about Justinian, it says "Romei" like 3 times. I cannot find a authorised translation in English online, or even a text in Greek online, so if you guys would accept my attempt to translate it from Bulgarian I'd do it, but I don't want to be accused in tampering with translations.

kosv01

Hi all,

Mentioning Heracleus i 'd like to share with you a picture of him i created about a year ago:

kosv01's deviantART gallery

All the best

---Kostas

Anna James

Cool! Thanks for sharing!

sturm

Im not entirely sure that the whole Roman empire was actually part of one culture. The eastern part of the empires were aways different culturally, the borders of Byzantium are not the only example however. The roman territories in Palestine and Northern Africa were different culturally from those in Italy itself.

Anna James, last year the bulgarian archaeologist Todor Chobanov (im sure you've heard of him), published a book "Bulgaria and the Byzantine empire: The titans of the cross". It is a well written book, there he presents the Byzantine not as an natural enemy, but in fact as a partner and a spiritual competitor. He writes about the cultural connections between the two empires, not only the wars and political problems between them.
I see that as a very modern perception of the history, not like the older books where the Byzantine empire is the major medieval rival of Bulgaria. Not that often this isn't the case but there are many good aspects, for example maybe thanks to the connection between the two countries, Bulgarians from a loose tribal confederation, transformed into a stable monarchy, and if it wasn't for the byzantine chronicles and documents, basically we will be unaware of our medieval history. I recommend this book.

Anna James

Thank you, sturm, this summer I'm coming in Bulgaria for the summer and will get the book.

ANAX

the Greek form Romaioi/"Romei" remained attached to the Greek-speaking Christian population of the Eastern part of Roman Empire and is still used by Greeks in addition to their common appellation.
have a look to the part of language and legacy at even today greeks are call themselves as Romii (<plurar, Romios/a > singular male/female) which becomes from Romei/Romans . this name for 2 reasons :
1. greeks were roman citizens of roman empire but also according to Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and many Roman historians (including Porcius Cato and Gaius Sempronius) regarded the origins of the Romans (descendants of the Aborigines) as Greek despite the fact that their knowledge was derived from Greek legendary accounts. also because of dorian greeks relatives with ancient romans (see that sabini which have mixed the ancient romans with, were from laconia/sparta )
2. so because greeks were citizens of roman empire as reffered, so they named themselves roman as all the citizens of roman empire. latin was the official language until emperor Heraclios change this to greek, which the most common language from the helinistic years to the east mediteranean part. so after muslim expansions to south and east and the lost of lands of teritories that still spoken latin language of the west mainly, the roman empire concentrated to balkans and asia minor, and the islands of Crete, Cyprus , Aegean and Ionian Islands (and for a while Siccily and south Italy in which also greek dialects existed) so at last romans means the greek speaking [christian] citizens of roman empire.

the ROMAN EMPERORS still use the titles imperator, augustus until the last (1453) when refferd in latin language, ( latin language was used as the language of international communication, scholarship and science in medieval and Renaissance christian europe , greek language is used to international communication to the eastern mediteranean part, as forexample between romans/byzantines and ottomans).
To a letter from Constantine XI Palaiologos (at 1451) to Marquess of Ferrara, in latin language is written :
Constantinus in christo deo fidelis imperator ac moderator Romeorum semper augustus......................
dat ex nostro palatio die 7 mensis aprilis 1451 ex Constantinopoli .............
when an emperor reffered to a letter , in Greek language he used the greek words βασιλεὐς (vasileus) and αυγουστος (augustos) of Romei respectively.
for example to an order of John VIII Palaiologos (1425-1448) that made for a Florentine man is written :
Ιωάννης εν Χριστῶ τῶ θεῶ πιστος Βασιλεύς και αυτοκράτωρ Ρωμαίων ο Παλαιολόγος και αεί αὒγουστος και πασι μεν τοῑς ἂλλοις ανθρωποις οὗσι ................
==================================
The state named Roman Empire / Romaiki autokratoria or another name is used from 4th century up to today [in greek language] is Romania (=state of Romans/Romei).
last Roman emperor Constantinos Palaiologos [imperator ac moderator Romeorum /vasileus (=king) and autocrator(=imperator) of Romei/Βασιλεύς και αυτοκράτωρ Ρωμαίων]to one of his last speech at 1453, call his faith soldiers' descendants of Greeks and Romans' and he add that Constantinople is the "Refuge for Christians, the hope and joy of All Greeks ...'' .
so the word Roman/Romei has a greek also meaning, but when you use it you must know all the historical background of it, for understand better its reffer.
=====================================

Ioannes Palaiologos imperator ac moderator Romeorum, (ruling 1425-1448) to a paint of 1445.

Stathis

Hmm, there are many misperceptions due to the differences of the languages, and it's a cause for long debates, one of them being the "eromenos - erastis" (lover) in ancient Greek literature. I may have to open a new thread for that in the "ancient hisotry" subforum. Same thing applies here, someone that does not speak greek, and hasn't been taught specifics of greek history in the ancient and modern greek language will probably not know what the word "Romios", "Romei" e.t.c mean and their origins.

It's like me reading about the history of the celts, without knowing gaelic, and without having the insight that people from these countries have because they live there and know some things better. That being said, of course there are people in Greece that do not know what Romie means (it's actually romie and not romei, cause romei is the greek word for romans), but anyone with a basic understanding and education in history knows it, and it's really simple to undesrtand, "Ρωμαιοι" - "Ρωμιοι", it's just one letter missing from the word "romans". Because of the equalizasion of the word Hellenes with pagans, greeks of the Eastern Roman Empire used the word Romei (Romans) to identify themselves, as they were the continuation of the old Roman Empire, but they essentialy meant Hellenes. Afterwards, the word was paraphrased into Romie. Ρωμαιος - Ρωμιος.

To answer to Kyrialax, the Byzantine Empire was a natural evolution of the Hellenic world. It is just that there were the Christians vs "Ethnics" era, where people could not study and write about ancient Greek authors, but that did not last very long, and eventually it was also the Orthodox monks who protected the ancient books from the wrath of Theodosios. Philosophy in Byzantium was a seamless continuation of antiquity, especially at the latter years, after 730 A.D, with many works of many philosophers like John of Damascus and his "Dialectica", which was lagely influenced by Aristotle's logic.

As to your oppinion about other people except greeks claiming the Byzantine herritage i would like to know about it. If you are reffering to slavic people, they partially do have a Byzantine herritage mainly a religious one, and in that manner Russia is also part of that herritage.

Kirialax

No, actually the people of the Eastern Roman Empire did not use the word Romei. You will never find it in their literature. And having read almost every primary historical source from the Byzantine period (ca. 400 - 1200) and 70+ secondary works, I am not convinced that they viewed themselves as Hellenes.

You're going to need better evidence. Being influenced by someone's thinking hardly makes them part of the original thinker's culture: the use of Aristotelian philosophy alone does not make John of Damascus any more Greek than Averroes or Thomas Aquinas.

falcon

To me that I speak the language (Greek), the word Romios/Ρωμιος (singular) or Romioi/Ρωμιοι (plural) meant "Roman like", and it clearly refered to Hellenes, as Anna also said.
That as opposed to the words Romaios/Ρωμαιος (singular) or Romaioi/Ρωμαιοι (plural) pronounced Romeos/Romei which actually meant Roman/Romans.
It's like Stathis said, you actually have to speak the language to understand the difference.

Thessalonian

Really? So, what did the people of the Eastern Roman Empire call themselves, in their own language?

Why were they called Imperium Graecorum by Westerners and the Arabs?

If you are not convinved that they viewed themselves as Hellenes then what do you think they viewed themselves as?