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Old September 24th, 2009, 07:28 AM   #41

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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See: 'How the Irish Saved Civilization'
This may be true, but it certainly doesn't apply to the rest of the European continent. This has nothing to do with religious bashing, but with historical observation and research.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 07:38 AM   #42

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


The economy had been stagnating ever since the Pax Romana ended, though their was a revival during the 4th century they never got close to the level of the 1st and 2nd century. Furthermore the empires structures were constantly being destroyed from within by the many civil wars, when the Roman empire in the west finally disintegrated it is but natural that the so called 'dark ages' occured, the sole reason there was so much prosperity was due to the internal stability under the Pax Romana, take that away, and everything reverted to self-sufficiency once more. For example, no longer would Britons import fine pottery from the Levant, but they would revert to home-made clay pottery with lesser quality. Also there was a drop in technological knowhow so gradually but certainly many old structures became useless.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 10:31 AM   #43
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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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Originally Posted by gaius valerius View Post
The economy had been stagnating ever since the Pax Romana ended, though their was a revival during the 4th century they never got close to the level of the 1st and 2nd century. Furthermore the empires structures were constantly being destroyed from within by the many civil wars, when the Roman empire in the west finally disintegrated it is but natural that the so called 'dark ages' occured, the sole reason there was so much prosperity was due to the internal stability under the Pax Romana, take that away, and everything reverted to self-sufficiency once more. For example, no longer would Britons import fine pottery from the Levant, but they would revert to home-made clay pottery with lesser quality. Also there was a drop in technological knowhow so gradually but certainly many old structures became useless.

Good post.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 10:46 AM   #44

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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Originally Posted by gaius valerius View Post
The economy had been stagnating ever since the Pax Romana ended, though their was a revival during the 4th century they never got close to the level of the 1st and 2nd century. Furthermore the empires structures were constantly being destroyed from within by the many civil wars, when the Roman empire in the west finally disintegrated it is but natural that the so called 'dark ages' occured, the sole reason there was so much prosperity was due to the internal stability under the Pax Romana, take that away, and everything reverted to self-sufficiency once more. For example, no longer would Britons import fine pottery from the Levant, but they would revert to home-made clay pottery with lesser quality. Also there was a drop in technological knowhow so gradually but certainly many old structures became useless.

This is a good post and one that is a common perception of the time period. I think the term "Dark Age" needs to be defined. What constitutes a "Dark Age"? While I agree with you to a certain extent, there are many other factors that put Western European society into the position of a "dark age". I think it depends on how one defines a "dark age".
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Old September 24th, 2009, 11:35 AM   #45

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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Originally Posted by gaius valerius View Post
The economy had been stagnating ever since the Pax Romana ended, though their was a revival during the 4th century they never got close to the level of the 1st and 2nd century. Furthermore the empires structures were constantly being destroyed from within by the many civil wars, when the Roman empire in the west finally disintegrated it is but natural that the so called 'dark ages' occured, the sole reason there was so much prosperity was due to the internal stability under the Pax Romana, take that away, and everything reverted to self-sufficiency once more. For example, no longer would Britons import fine pottery from the Levant, but they would revert to home-made clay pottery with lesser quality. Also there was a drop in technological knowhow so gradually but certainly many old structures became useless.
So economy decreased, going to self sufficient economy, lower trade then lower cultural contact with other cultures, thus slowing down in cultural development. On the other words not enlightening.

Closing to the world. Doesn’t it means Dark Age?


It is not coincidence rich nations in the history like Egyptians Roman, Greeks and Mesopotamian civilizations and many others produce more for the world culture with their economy and their cultural contacts.


Rome was the sun on the Europea. When she fade it became dark.
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Old September 24th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #46

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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While I agree with you to a certain extent, there are many other factors that put Western European society into the position of a "dark age". I think it depends on how one defines a "dark age".
I agree, what is a "Dark Age"? I do not like the term, just as I do not like the original meaning of the term Middle Ages, see below.


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Rome was the sun on the Europea. When she fade it became dark.
A rather lyric approach to history. I don't think there is much poetry in history though. The term Dark Age is mainly a label given by later generations, just as the term Middle Ages is a derrogative for the period in between the Classic and Renaissance era given by Renaissance scholars. In any case the terminology is always misleading for it is an emotional statement, not necessarily a historical one.

True, the standards of living definitely dropped during this period, yet not all was "dark" in these ages and it certainly didn't comprise all of Europe. But the fall of one civilisation makes way for the rise of another, the fall of the classic civilisation made way for the foundations of a new civilisation that in turn would be the base of our western civilisation, later on picking up parts of her predecessor. Dark and light all have a place in history, we don't need to feel sorry for it, they are both constitutive elements of our present day society.

Last edited by gaius valerius; September 24th, 2009 at 12:20 PM.
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Old September 26th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #47

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


Efendi and all:


First of all, the "Dark Ages" are kind of a misnomer, becuause a lot of administrative functions inherited from the Roman empire(either Eastern or Western), continued to function, but they began to function locally, under local rulers. And then there was the rise of the Church, which, at least in the West, helped (sort of) bind everything together. Finally, you have to bear in mind that basically what happened is that the temporal Roman Empire pretty much shifted to the east(that was where the political and ministrative "power" actually lay), and Rome was left as a sort of spiritual power in the West, which had some serious consequences hundreds of years later, but it did a sort of administrative sturcture around which local powers could grow and perhaps thrive. And of course, this is vastly oversimplified.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #48

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


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Originally Posted by Eyza View Post
Efendi and all:


First of all, the "Dark Ages" are kind of a misnomer, becuause a lot of administrative functions inherited from the Roman empire(either Eastern or Western), continued to function, but they began to function locally, under local rulers. And then there was the rise of the Church, which, at least in the West, helped (sort of) bind everything together. Finally, you have to bear in mind that basically what happened is that the temporal Roman Empire pretty much shifted to the east(that was where the political and ministrative "power" actually lay), and Rome was left as a sort of spiritual power in the West, which had some serious consequences hundreds of years later, but it did a sort of administrative sturcture around which local powers could grow and perhaps thrive. And of course, this is vastly oversimplified.
Anne G
What I understand is:

Once a time there were Greath roman which was greath civilization. After many unfortunate things, barbarian atack etc. West Europea fell in instabilities. It took long to recover. In the interval Europe preserved her roman values could harly produce new things.

At the same time, Rome swifted to east side to İstanbul. Went on her value in another twin Empire east Roman empire.?

Right?

Tolga ÷.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 02:50 AM   #49
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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


Goffart does a good job of discussing whether, and why, Rome "fell" - his "Rome's Fall and After" is a good read. For balance (Goffart's thesis is not universally agreed with), Chris Wickham's "Framing the Middle Ages" (it came out in 2005, and I think you can pick it up for about £20) is excellent if difficult for an amateur. The Wickham book is excellent and I suspect it will become one of a classic monograph on the dark ages, so it's well worth the investment.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 04:18 AM   #50

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Re: Why Europe fell into the Dark Ages after Rome's collapse?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendi View Post
What I understand is:

Once a time there were Greath roman which was greath civilization. After many unfortunate things, barbarian atack etc. West Europea fell in instabilities. It took long to recover. In the interval Europe preserved her roman values could harly produce new things.

At the same time, Rome swifted to east side to İstanbul. Went on her value in another twin Empire east Roman empire.?

Right?

Tolga ÷.
In the interval Europe laid the foundations of a profoundly new society that in the Renaissance would pick up classic aspects and formed the basis of current day western society. The Roman empire as a whole fell because it was internally unstable (civil war). The fragmentation is a result of that inability.

The eastern empire was different from the old Roman empire at its hight. The Principate had long been replaced by the dominate and after 395 CE both empires went there own way, sometimes even opposed to each other. The Rome of 395 was different from the Rome of 14 CE and it was different from the Constantinople of 700 CE.
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