MonomachmosIV

Who did the Byzantines refer to as "The Franks"? In modern sense, we think of the Franks as those from France- but it seems that the Byzantines had something a bit more broad in mind for this term. So one obviously gets the impression they mean "Western Europeans". However, Viking Rus and Venetians, Genoese seem to be excluded from this group- at least sometimes. (Though in modern Greek, Frangosyrianes refer to Catholics from the island of Syros).


Like the use of Roman and Hellene in Late Byzantium was this a complex and subjective (obviously) nomenclature of "the other" or is there a more simple explanation? Were the Italians ever referred to as "Franks"? How about Western Slavs and Germans? I know that the Hungarians are referred to as "Turki" although they followed the Western church.

Was there a notion that the Crusading armies were made up of knights and men-at-arms speaking different languages.?

Bart Dale

I know that Germans were lumped under the title "Franks", as were people from feudal England. You are correct that the term "Frank" was broader in meaning than just someone from France or a member of the Germanic tribe called the Franks.

It seems that anyone from feudal Europe, France, the Low Countries (Belgium, Netherlands), England, Germany and Austria, and the Slavic lands under German rule (what is now Czech, Slovakia) would have been called Franks. The reason I think the Italians from Genoa and Venice and the other Italian cities were not called Franks is (a) the Byzantines had more experience dealing with them than your typical Frank, who Byzantiums experience with usually were associated with one of the Crusades, and (b) the Italian cities were not typical feudal societies.

Since they didn't deal with the Franks too much, unlike the Italians from cities like Venice and Genoa, they lumped all the knights and others who dressed and behaved similarly together, even if they spoke different languages. Since France for many years was the strongest European nation, and sent the largest contigents on the Crusade, it was natural to call these Europeans as "Franks". The Hungarians probably didn't get lumped under the title "Frank" because they were closer to Byzantium, and therefore the Byzantines probably had more dealings with them then the typical "Frank". As I said, most of the so-called Franks were Crusading knights, who even though they came from different countries with different languages, wore similar armour, fought in a similar manner, dressed in similar clothes, etc.

Cavanboy

I beleive a lot of crusaders knights reffered to themselves as franks claiming descent from charlemagne, the father of chivalry, alot of muslims also grouped all crusaders under the name "franks"

MonomachmosIV

Do you know of any reference to Western Slavs being called Franks (because they were under German rule)?

My instinct tells me that the Byzantines would have differentiated, given the somewhat important Byzantine role in Christianizing and teaching the Moravian Slavs.

AlpinLuke

I can agree.

I think it was a term indicating the "Franks" who fought against the Byzantine Empire in early 9th century.

That conflict saw the Franks conquering parts of modern Croatia and Dalmatia.

Starting from this historical event [which could make me think to a parallel with the Roman usage of the term "Germans" indicating the tribes against which they fought].

I guess that the Byzantines kept that conception of Franks, seeing a distinctions with the Slavs in the Balkans. Probably they considered "Franks" the Slavs under German power for the historical reason exposed above.

Frank81

Muslims from Al-Andalus called christian Iberians, Franks too. For example, the crossbow was called "frankish bow".

AlpinLuke

You know I suspect it's for similar reasons: the first Christians they faced in history were Franks [in 8th century CE].

A note: in the age of the crusades the Franks were the "Franji" for Arab speaking people.

Yaunâ

And that's probably the origin of the Greek-Byzantine surname "Frantzis".

Yaunâ

Didn't they face the Christians of Middle East firstly (inc. Byzantines) ?

AlpinLuke

Your right ....

Christian is too general as term. I had to specify "Western Christians".

In fact, in the age of the Crusades they called "Franji" the Christians coming from Western Europe.