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Old November 14th, 2012, 07:24 AM   #211
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I hope you come back sooner because I'm curious about this statement:
Exactly on which part of my aforementioned statement?
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Originally Posted by sylla1
Nope, I did mean Crusaders, because on the long run they were defeated by the Christian Romans too (sometimes miscalled "Byzantines"), not just by the Muslims.
BTW, it was originally the answer for this commentary addressed to yours truly (post # 44)
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Christian, you mean Christian, you are getting confused you should be asking was the Islamic crusades successful as they haven't yet eradicated Christians from the middle east.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #212

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Exactly on which part of my aforementioned statement? BTW, it was originally the answer for this commentary addressed to yours truly (post # 44)

The part where they were defeated by Christian Romans in the long run. I checked that out but didn't understand post # 44.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 07:57 AM   #213

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The part where they were defeated by Christian Romans. I checked that out but didn't understand post # 44.

Sylla is most likely referring to the events of 1204-1261 for the lifetime of the Latin Empire of Constantinople. Where after the capture of the city by the 4th Crusade the Byzantine successor states clawed back their lost territory over time and finally the city itself in 1261. With Genoese help in 1261 as well I should point out.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:01 AM   #214

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Sylla is most likely referring to the events of 1204-1261 for the lifetime of the Latin Empire of Constantinople. Where after the capture of the city by the 4th Crusade the Byzantine successor states clawed back their lost territory over time and finally the city itself in 1261. With Genoese help in 1261 as well I should point out.
I see, but wasn't that a defeat for Constantinople? From what I read it never recover from the blow.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:03 AM   #215

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I see, but wasn't that a defeat for Constantinople? From what I read it never recover from the blow.
Question of scale. The events of 1204-1261 were a severe blow to the Byzantines in general, a blow that would have longstanding reprecussions and contribute to matters in the course of the next couple of centuries.

yet in 1260 the Byznatines did not control Constantinople and in 1262 they did. 1261 was a victory for them, even if it was a victory on a gradual decline.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #216

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Question of scale. The events of 1204-1261 were a severe blow to the Byzantines in general, a blow that would have longstanding reprecussions and contribute to matters in the course of the next couple of centuries.

yet in 1260 the Byznatines did not control Constantinople and in 1262 they did. 1261 was a victory for them, even if it was a victory on a gradual decline.
Okay. However one of the goals of the Crusades was to protect Constantinople from falling in the hands of Islam. And in this sense the goal failled. But the occupation of Constantinople was not within the goal of the Crusades, it was more related with the feud between Christian Latins and Greeks, it was a consequence of the massacre of the Latins and the trade dispute between Venice and Constantinople.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #217
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The part where they were defeated by Christian Romans in the long run. I checked that out but didn't understand post # 44.
Our Dreamweaver is absolutely right; the so-called Latin Empire of Constantinople was an absolute failure and it was crushed by the Romans after just some decades.

Regarding post #44, I didn't write it.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #218

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Our Dreamweaver is absolutely right; the so-called Latin Empire of Constantinople was an absolute failure and it was crushed by the Romans after just some decades.

Regarding post #44, I didn't write it.
Okay. About post #44 I notice you didn't write, I just couldn't get any clue about your answer to that post from there.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #219
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Obviously you cannot argue that the Crusaders won. They lost in the long run as they were driven out of the Levant.

But then again, did anybody really win? The Byznatines faired badly in the long run. Though who knows, maybe they would have done even worse if the Crusades never happened.

The Muslims lost their center of learning at Baghdad to the Mongols, which was part of the same conflict and may not have happened if it wasn't for the Crusades. But then again the Age of Reason in the Islamic World had already been crushed from within by Quranic Literalists.

I suppose the real winners were the Spanish and Portuguese, because all that Crusading fervour in Western Europe meant that loads of Frenchmen went to help the Spanish in the reconquest of Iberia against the Moors, and the reconquest of Lisbon was an actual act of one of the Crusades.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 10:20 AM   #220
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I don't think Mongols offered anything but blood in Persia, Baghdad, up to Cairo....and I think you very well know they went all the way unopposed ! there were no resistence from Abbasids or other kingdoms, yet the slaughter happended !!

In any way, Mongol history is interesting to me....If you can name good sources, I'll be glad....
Well they definately did a lot of massacring and destruction. But under the Ilkhanate Rule in Persia, the arts flourished. They removed the Islamic restrictions on the depiction of human beings so there was an explosion of artistic representation in literature.

All of those awesome Illustrated histories of Medieval Persia begin under the Ilkhanates:

The illustrated versions of the Shahnama:
Shahnama Shahnama

The illustrated versions of the Dieza Albums by Rashid Al-Din:
Category:Rashid-ad-Din illustrations from the Diez Albums - Wikimedia Commons

Rashid-al-Din Hamadani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And also illustrated versions of Ibn Al-Kutbi's "The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries":
The_Remaining_Signs_of_Past_Centuries The_Remaining_Signs_of_Past_Centuries
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