Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #261

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 9,888
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-Tabari View Post
I have no need to prove my argument as it is one already agreed upon by historians more knowledgeable than you and I. And my unwillingness to you, indulge your unwarranted and unreasonable request is not out of laziness but is due to my appreciation of time. I am also a student of history and I have my own course related research to do so kindly don't attribute this to laziness.

You know as well as I do that providing quantitative data for something like that would take countless hours of research. And I am quite sure you knew that when you made your request and perhaps you knew from the beginning that I would decline to waste so much of my time. So I will not be indulging your request as this is not some weak argument in need of strong support. It is something that is largely attested in a wide variety of secondary sources. My time is valuable to me and unless it is for official academic purposes, I will not be conducting this quantitative study.

And you may take that as you wish.
I was in no way expecting you to provide an entire thesis on the matter, a few links, a few examples a citation or two would have been suitable enough, it is neither unwarranted nor unreasonable it is the very core and basis to history. You were asked to provide some evidence, you have failed to do this and in doing so attempt to place the onus onto others. I can only hope you do not do this in your field of academic study.

You are too lazy to give any information, so be it. Your claim remains unsubstantiated, so be it. That aside the thread has moved on.

Last edited by DreamWeaver; November 16th, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
DreamWeaver is online now  
Remove Ads
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #262

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 9,888
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinmeath View Post
Would wars against 'Heretics' such as the Cathars and Hussites count as 'crusades'.

The Teutonic Knights in the North and East are often called crusade aren't they?

Would the siege of Malta be a crusade?
Depends on the definition they may or many not be.

The current academic field is divided to some greater or lesser extent, as defined by Giles Constable in 2001. (I managed to dig it out) As with all things these are never truly hard and set,


1. Traditionalist who see Crusade solely within those in the Latin East with Jerusalem and other religious locations protection/recovery as a crusade.

2. Pluralists, who see any expedition bearing the privileges and benefits of crusading as a crusade wherever they might go.

3. Popularists who see any essence of crusading appearing in eschatological elements or prophetically in popular collective terms regardless of Papal approval, so this would include the Children's Crusade and the Shepherds Crusade etc.


4. Generalists, holy wars in general, thus permitting an ever greater and wider possible definition, more so than those of the Pluralists.


Giles Constable, The Historiography of the Crusades

Last edited by DreamWeaver; November 16th, 2012 at 01:04 PM.
DreamWeaver is online now  
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #263

Kevinmeath's Avatar
Acting Corporal
 
Joined: May 2011
From: Navan, Ireland
Posts: 7,101

Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Strictly speaking no, sometimes depending on the context in turn, largely because virtually all of those military expeditions were blessed by the Papacy and had at least nominally some pro-Catholic intention (e.g. the conversion of pagan populations)

For the purposes of this thread I understood that the strict definition was implied.

I have a book (which I haven't read yet --- a bad habit, go into a book shop and think thats interesting! more money spent--- entitled the 'Northern Crusades' the Teutonic Knights (formed in the Holy land) figthing against the 'Enemies of Christ' in Easstern Europe or is it only a 'Crusade' if it fight Islam?

In which case The siege of Malta and Vienna etc and the fight against Ottoman expansion are Crusades? certainly blessed by the Pope.

I agree with your point that just because the Popes blessed a campaign doesn't mean anything -- William the Bastard of Normandy had Papal blessing for his invasion of England, how can that be a Crusade.

The Popes did give the same 'benefits' of a Crusade to the 'Holy Land' in fighting against the 'heathens' in the East and 'heretics' in the west.

Is a Crusade only to do with the 'Holy Land'? once it goes beyond that it is it no longer a 'Crusade' (The OP doesn't say that it just says 'Crusade') so the Knights of St Johns epic struggles at Rhodes and Malta (the last Crusader 'Kingdoms'?) are not 'The Crusades' even though they are very much 'Crusaders'.

The Reconquista is not a crusade, despite being at the same time but is not dealing with the Kingdom of Jerusalem?

Didn't Crusades attack Egypt and Constantinople?

What actually are the Crusades?
Kevinmeath is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #264

Kevinmeath's Avatar
Acting Corporal
 
Joined: May 2011
From: Navan, Ireland
Posts: 7,101

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
Depends on the definition they may or many not be.

The current academic field is divided to some greater or lesser extent, as defined by Giles Constable in 2001. As with all things these are never truly hard and set,


1. Traditionalist who see Crusade solely within those in the Latin East with Jerusalem and other religious locations protection/recovery as a crusade.

2. Pluralists, who see any expedition bearing the privileges and benefits of crusading as a crusade wherever they might go.

3. Popularists who see any essence of crusading appearing in eschatological elements or prophetically in popular collective terms regardless of Papal approval, so this would include the Children's Crusade and the Shepherds Crusade etc.


4. Generalists, holy wars in general, thus permitting an ever greater and wider possible definition, more so than those of the Pluralists.

Sorry our posts crossed 'in the night' as it were
Kevinmeath is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #265

Kirialax's Avatar
Megas Domestikos
 
Joined: Dec 2009
From: Canada
Posts: 3,280
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
You couldn't imagine to what extent is your superb "little post" informative & provoking for yours truly

A million thanks for sharing it with us.

After all has been said, it seems painstakingly obvious that we fundamentally agree, huh?
Well said. Dreamweaver's being a real trooper here and giving us a lot of (very interesting) information on how the field works. Three cheers for Dreamweaver!
Kirialax is online now  
Old November 16th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #266

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 9,888
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirialax View Post
Well said. Dreamweaver's being a real trooper here and giving us a lot of (very interesting) information on how the field works. Three cheers for Dreamweaver!






.........you accept American Express right?


DreamWeaver is online now  
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:36 PM   #267

Labienus's Avatar
Il Conte di Virtù
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Canada
Posts: 6,390

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
I apologize if this thread has been made before, as I know that there are many, many threads about the Crusades.

I often think about the Crusades, being the grossly over romanticized conflicts that they were, and I think of questions about them. Most of the time I come to some sort of answer, but I think that the Title question, how won them needs to be answered by people who know more about history than I do. Because its kind of confusing who won the Crusades. Maybe nobody won, maybe the Crusades are to much of a generalization to pin down a victor. All opinions are welcome.
Well, even though Outremer was conquered in 1291, I think the crusades greatly strengthened the papacy. At the time of the First Crusade, Urban II was trying to impose his authority over Christendom as he was opposed by an antipope due to the Investiture Controversy. By using the Peace and Truce of God to mobilize the French nobility at Clermont, Urban II effectively strengthened his position as leader of the Church as he managed to control and direct the forces of his enemy the emperor Henry IV, which was certainly a demonstration of influence and authority.

Overall, I think the crusades enabled the papacy to significantly increase its power and authority and paved the way for the relative enforcement of the Dictatus Papae and the immense power of the papacy in the 13th century, especially under Innocent III.
Labienus is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:46 PM   #268
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

IMHO the Papacy of Inocenzo III wisely increased it power in spite of the terrible fiasco of the IV Crusade, arguably largely thanks to the Albigensian (pseudo?-) Crusade.
sylla1 is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #269

Labienus's Avatar
Il Conte di Virtù
 
Joined: Jul 2009
From: Canada
Posts: 6,390

Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
IMHO the Papacy of Inocenzo III wisely increased it power in spite of the terrible fiasco of the IV Crusade, arguably largely thanks to the Albigensian (pseudo?-) Crusade.
I think you're entirely correct.
Labienus is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 03:51 PM   #270
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinmeath View Post
I have a book (which I haven't read yet --- a bad habit, go into a book shop and think thats interesting! more money spent--- entitled the 'Northern Crusades' the Teutonic Knights (formed in the Holy land) figthing against the 'Enemies of Christ' in Easstern Europe or is it only a 'Crusade' if it fight Islam?

In which case The siege of Malta and Vienna etc and the fight against Ottoman expansion are Crusades? certainly blessed by the Pope.

I agree with your point that just because the Popes blessed a campaign doesn't mean anything -- William the Bastard of Normandy had Papal blessing for his invasion of England, how can that be a Crusade.

The Popes did give the same 'benefits' of a Crusade to the 'Holy Land' in fighting against the 'heathens' in the East and 'heretics' in the west.

Is a Crusade only to do with the 'Holy Land'? once it goes beyond that it is it no longer a 'Crusade' (The OP doesn't say that it just says 'Crusade') so the Knights of St Johns epic struggles at Rhodes and Malta (the last Crusader 'Kingdoms'?) are not 'The Crusades' even though they are very much 'Crusaders'.

The Reconquista is not a crusade, despite being at the same time but is not dealing with the Kingdom of Jerusalem?

Didn't Crusades attack Egypt and Constantinople?

What actually are the Crusades?
For one, definitely not the Reconquista, an exponentially lengthier historical process than all the formal Crusades of Holy Land together, for which BTW the blessing of His Holiness was fundamentally unrequired.
sylla1 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
crusades, victor


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crusades SPERRO Medieval and Byzantine History 66 September 29th, 2011 01:34 AM
Different Victor at the second Battle of Philipi Isoroku295 Speculative History 2 March 8th, 2010 04:44 PM
GIAP: The Victor in Vietnam bigscreeninkster History Book Reviews 1 December 29th, 2009 02:15 AM
Victor Davis Hanson Pantagruel History Book Reviews 12 July 22nd, 2009 06:24 AM
Victor Hugo Commander History Book Reviews 8 June 11th, 2008 07:11 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.