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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by BrowniesRule View Post
Crusaders are barbarians and savages that pillaged their way through the Holy Land killing muslims and jews alike. The Crusades are a scourge to christianity, and they distorted the good-hearted inoffensive teachings of the Church and plunged Islam and Christianity in a gladiator fight for eternity.
This early post is still fundamentally right, aside of the obvious well-attested fact that it was the Papacy, the very head of the Catholic Church, who deliberately promoted these fanatic expeditions.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #412
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You have said the figure ''tens of thousands'' but you didn't say where you got that information.
Yup, because it is such an incredibly exaggerated claim from poor ol' yours truly...

Anyhow:

Crusades (1095-1291)

Robertson, John M., A Short History of Christianity (1902) p.278: 9,000,000
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000
Henry William Elson, Modern Times and the Living Past, (1921) p. 261: 5,000,000
Om Prakesh Jaggi, Religion, Practice and Science of Non-violence, (1974) p. 40: "The crusades cost Europe five million young men"
Fielding Hudson Garrison, Notes on the History of Military Medicine, Association of Military Surgeons, (1922) p. 106: 3,000,000 total, incl. 2,000,000 Europeans
MEDIAN: 3,000,000
Philip Alexander Prince, Parallel universal history, an outline of the history and biography of the world divided into ... (1838) p.207: "Although two million souls perished in the Crusades..."
Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed.
Wertham: 1,000,000
John Shertzer Hittell, A Brief History of Culture (1874) p.137: "In the two centuries of this warfare one million persons had been slain..."


Albigensian Crusade (1208-49)

The traditional death toll given for the war against the Cathars is 1,000,000, which is repeated in these:
John M. Robertson, A Short History of Christianity, London: Watts, 1902, p.254 ("It has been reckoned that a million of all ages and both sexes were slain.")
Christopher Brookmyre, Not the End of the World (New York: Grove Press, 1998) p.39
Max Dimont, Jews, God, and History, (New York: Penguin, 1994) p.225: 1,000,000 Frenchmen suspected of being Albigensians slain
Dizerega Gus, Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience (St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn, 2001) p.195
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History (Orlando, FL: Morningstar & Lark, 1995) p.74
Michael Newton, Holy Homicide (Port Townsend, WA: Loompanics Unlimited, 1998) p.117
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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #413
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I dont drink coffee

I have had a very lovely day, yesterday was my 6 year anniversary with my other half.
Decaf Tea?

Anyhow, wish the best for Mrs Dreamweaver and her other half

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #414
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Anyhow:
I didn't know you wholeheartedly agreed to laketahoejwb's ideas, but I guess that explains a lot of things as to how you explain the Crusades with your 21st century scope. But in the end you're always going to be right about everything because ''facts are facts'' as you say.


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Because all those other wars and the vast majority of conflicts all along History have ultimately been either for survival or simply for healthy rational human greed.
In your mind the Crusades have no true purposes because you don't see one with the first look you cast upon them. That's probably why you refuse to see that there were other events going on in the same time period that were as violent, as ressource-draining, and as deadly as a bunch of pilgrims making their way through Jerusalem. Moving on.


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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
As you may know, under regular secular academic grounds, such rationale for wasting men & money would have been considered plainly stupid.
At least you've admitted it, ''according to modern standards'', the Crusades are a waste. Now if you really wander about the meaning of things, the next step should be to look at what Crusades meant for those who lived it. But I doubt you're ever going to get that far.


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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Robertson, John M., A Short History of Christianity (1902) p.278: 9,000,000
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000
Henry William Elson, Modern Times and the Living Past, (1921) p. 261: 5,000,000
Om Prakesh Jaggi, Religion, Practice and Science of Non-violence, (1974) p. 40: "The crusades cost Europe five million young men"
Fielding Hudson Garrison, Notes on the History of Military Medicine, Association of Military Surgeons, (1922) p. 106: 3,000,000 total, incl. 2,000,000 Europeans
MEDIAN: 3,000,000
Philip Alexander Prince, Parallel universal history, an outline of the history and biography of the world divided into ... (1838) p.207: "Although two million souls perished in the Crusades..."
Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed.
Wertham: 1,000,000
John Shertzer Hittell, A Brief History of Culture (1874) p.137: "In the two centuries of this warfare one million persons had been slain..."
Tough luck big boy, no books deals specifically with the Crusades, most are written before the 1950's, and you (or them books) forgot to put that number on a comparative scale with the rest of Europe. If those numbers help you sleep better at night than it's all good. In a sense i'm glad in the end you prove my last post's point so clearly.

Last edited by BrowniesRule; December 4th, 2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by BrowniesRule View Post
I didn't know you wholeheartedly agreed to laketahoejwb's ideas, but I guess that explains a lot of things as to how you explain the Crusades with your 21st century scope. But in the end you're always going to be right about everything because ''facts are facts'' as you say.




In your mind the Crusades have no true purposes because you don't see one with the first look you cast upon them. That's probably why you refuse to see that there were other events going on in the same time period that were as violent, as ressource-draining, and as deadly as a bunch of pilgrims making their way through Jerusalem. Moving on.




At least you've admitted it, ''according to modern standards'', the Crusades are a waste. Now if you really wander about the meaning of things, the next step should be to look at what Crusades meant for those who lived it. But I doubt you're ever going to get that far.




Tough luck big boy, no books deals specifically with the Crusades, most are written before the 1950's, and you (or them books) forgot to put that number on a comparative scale with the rest of Europe. If those numbers help you sleep better at night than it's all good. In a sense i'm glad in the end you prove my last post's point so clearly.
"Sleep at night"??? Wow; just unbiased academic focus, huh?

Don't know and couldn't care less why are you so obsessively desperate on gratuitously distorting the crystal clear facts.

Facts are facts, and the Crusades were a colossal waste of lives and resources for the fanatic penance of the sins by Holy War, by the standards of any century.
Period.

Truly sorry that you can't do nothing to modify History.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #416
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Alright sylla1, here's the deal. Since I'm obviously not going to convince you (nor will anyone else) and that you're not going to convince me, I have to ask about your background, since it's the only thing that will solve this case.

Are you religious?
Where did you study?
How old are you?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:30 PM   #417

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It is my understanding that the crusades were simply the manifestation of the societal expansion of Latin Christendom. Would none of you agree that, prior to the first crusade, europe west of Constantinople was in a state of cultural expansion? As we all know, the vikings and magyars were at the time both being brought into the cultural sphere of the christian "Europe".

Is there a corolation between the epansion of Latin Europe and the contraction of Orthodox Europe? Perhaps events further east in Iran invloving the Islamic practice of Turkifying the military caste, and the political break-up of the islamic world have something to do with it.

My argument is thus: Enormous civilizational movements like the Crusades can never be watered down to a paragraph.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #418
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My argument is thus: Enormous civilizational movements like the Crusades can never be watered down to a paragraph.
What do you mean? The Crusades were a colossal waste of lives and resources for the fanatic penance of the sins by Holy War, by the standards of any century.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by BrowniesRule View Post
Alright sylla1, here's the deal. Since I'm obviously not going to convince you (nor will anyone else) and that you're not going to convince me, I have to ask about your background, since it's the only thing that will solve this case.

Are you religious?
Where did you study?
How old are you?
Why should my background modify the objective facts?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by The Black Knight View Post
It is my understanding that the crusades were simply the manifestation of the societal expansion of Latin Christendom. Would none of you agree that, prior to the first crusade, europe west of Constantinople was in a state of cultural expansion? As we all know, the vikings and magyars were at the time both being brought into the cultural sphere of the christian "Europe".

Is there a corolation between the epansion of Latin Europe and the contraction of Orthodox Europe? Perhaps events further east in Iran invloving the Islamic practice of Turkifying the military caste, and the political break-up of the islamic world have something to do with it.

My argument is thus: Enormous civilizational movements like the Crusades can never be watered down to a paragraph.
Welcome to Historum, Black Knight.

What exactly a "civilizational movement" would be?

As previously explained, far as I can tell the Crusades were fundamentally military expeditions (enormous indeed) with poor rationale (penance of the sins by holy warfare) and little if any objective benefit for the invaders themselves; would that qualify?

The contemporary Europe was indeed in a state of cultural expansion, ostensibly so largely in spite of the Crusades.

The Vikings (Norse) had already been raiding the Mediterranean against Muslims and Romans for a time and their activities may well be consider "proto-crusader" to some extent, with the significant difference that they ostensibly had just the perfectly rational motivation of mere greed.

The correlation you are looking for was that the Empire of Constantinople became attacked by their fellow Christians who were supposed to help them until the former was eventually conquered by the Fourth Crusade.

The Turkification of the military elites had by then already a long history all along the Islamic world.

I don't think either that complex historical phenomena (either the Crusades or whatever "civilizational movements" may be) could ever be watered down to a paragraph.
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