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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old August 12th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #41

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Originally Posted by Essa View Post
Well guys, you're making me say the same rationale....

You claim its was forcible conversion, I claim that since the option of religion retention was given beforehand, then its not an offer of war....The Crusades was not a peaceful move because its not intended to spread Christianity nor it offered anything before waging war....


Man with army turns up on your doorstep and says convert.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Essa View Post
Well guys, you're making me say the same rationale....

You claim its was forcible conversion, I claim that since the option of religion retention was given beforehand, then its not an offer of war....The Crusades was not a peaceful move because its not intended to spread Christianity nor it offered anything before waging war....
hello essa:

The Crusades in the East had nothing to with war. "These European warriors had first set out on the road to Jerusalem after Pope Urban II made an appeal for troops at Clermont, France, on November 27, 1095" .... http://www.historynet.com/first-crus...-jerusalem.htm ....their mission was to eliminate the infidels from Jerusalem not to fight war. This was successful if you consider Arabs, Jews, Christians even animals as Infidels. This wasn't war, this was savagery.

The rules of war wasn't considered and they were paid By blasphemic Indulgences.

After the fourth or fifth "Crusade" it was generally war between European powers which had nothing to do with Urban's speech, or ridding out Infidels. The monarchs used the "Crusaders" as mercenaries and pawns as was the practice of all european fiefdoms. There, battle cries were sounded and valiant armies took no prisoners.

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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:17 AM   #43
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I apologize if this thread has been made before, as I know that there are many, many threads about the Crusades.

I often think about the Crusades, being the grossly over romanticized conflicts that they were, and I think of questions about them. Most of the time I come to some sort of answer, but I think that the Title question, how won them needs to be answered by people who know more about history than I do. Because its kind of confusing who won the Crusades. Maybe nobody won, maybe the Crusades are to much of a generalization to pin down a victor. All opinions are welcome.
As a whole, it is indisputable that the Crusaders were clearly defeated and totally expelled from their conquered territories of the Middle East.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #44

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As a whole, it is indisputable that the Crusaders were clearly defeated and totally expelled from their conquered territories of the Middle East.
Christian, you mean Christian, you are getting confused you should be asking was the Islamic crusades successful as they haven't yet eradicated Christians from the middle east.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #45

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to be quite precise the Frankish inhabitants of the Latin East were expelled, they themselves were not actually crusaders.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #46

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Originally Posted by Essa View Post

You claim its was forcible conversion, I claim that since the option of religion retention was given beforehand, then its not an offer of war....
Rather than forcible conversion, what is perhaps more interesting is the resistance early Islam demonstrated towards its subjects converting. Islamic rulers created a category of "second class citizen" once more of the populace began to convert to Islam in the later eighth century. Undoubtably, the religious elite felt their privileges (and coffers) threatened by large scale conversion.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #47
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It certainly does differ


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No Kevinmeath....No one is asked to dennounce their own religion, and their tax is different than Muslim taxes...

And as I pointed dude, "Practice" differs by nations and people than the basic Islamic guidence on these matters....So I don't deny factors such as greed or ambition coming into place, but not the usual case (or the Base case)....ofcourse there are cases of non-muslim obression, but these were never welcomed and may have been subject of circumstances for that specific period....
In the 12 centuries that Islam has controlled the Temple Mount, ZERO buildings of worship for the Jewish faith have been constructed on their holiest site.


In 1950 the entire Jewish population of Yemen, 50,000 slaves, elected to LEAVE- leaving all posessions behind. Roughly 400 Jews are still trapped in 'Jew Park' in SA'NA- a guarded enclosure they are not alowed to leave.

Under the Zaydi rule, the Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati..._Carpet_(Yemen)
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Old August 12th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #48
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Christian, you mean Christian, you are getting confused you should be asking was the Islamic crusades successful as they haven't yet eradicated Christians from the middle east.
Nope, I did mean Crusaders, because on the long run they were defeated by the Christian Romans too (sometimes miscalled "Byzantines"), not just by the Muslims.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
Is there ANY kingdom which was conquered by an Islamic power in the way you describe ?
Still waiting .
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Old August 12th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #50
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An outdated view


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Originally Posted by Essa View Post
The difference is a mjor thing: Muslims offered Islam OR Retention of ones religion but with a moderate Jizya (Tax) to cover Admin. + protection costs before any fighting should take place.....

Besides, Christian and Jewish societies co-existed within Islamic rule....

But did the Crusades offer anyhting?

Did other societies co-existed under Chrisitan rule of that time ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The largest existing Christian community in Islam is the Coptic community in Egypt
Fate: under siege- & getting worse
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts]Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
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