Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 24th, 2012, 09:48 AM   #51

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,197
Blog Entries: 6

See post 42.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 24th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #52
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
See post 42.
Please see my post #47 on why your post #42 is irrelevant on your so far fallacious bare assertion about the correlation of European demography and Crusades being just a [sic] "coincidence".

Now, without any other desperate red herrings, would you be so kind to:

- Please give any straight answer for once to the question from my post #46

- Please share with us your relevant hard evidence on why the correlation between European demography and Crusades must be just a coincidence.

Thanks in advance.
sylla1 is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #53

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,197
Blog Entries: 6

See post 42 also 27.


All has been laid out quite apparently there.

Despite the innumerable straw men that have been set up by you.


Because it is quite evident that since post 27 you havent a clue about what Im saying.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #54
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
See post 42 also 27.


All has been laid out quite apparently there.

Despite the innumerable straw men that have been set up by you.
Nope, ostensibly not by a long shot, as anyone could easily verify.

Must infer that's exactly why you are entirely unable to avoid evasives now and to give any straight answer here.
sylla1 is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #55

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,197
Blog Entries: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Nope, ostensibly not by a long shot, as anyone could easily verify.

Must infer that's exactly why you are entirely unable to avoid evasives now and to give any straight answer here.
Another fatal assumption that you are making Sylla, you really should stop doing that.

As I said in post 42 so long ago. We do not know for 1096.
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 10:08 AM   #56
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
Another fatal assumption that you are making Sylla, you really should stop doing that.

As I said in post 46 so long ago. We do not know for 1096.
Thanks.

So after endless red herrings, you just don't know...

We agree.

Guess the academic community must be ectasic as they ostensibly share their ignorance on this issue with you... and me.

Now, on the "just a coincidence" of the correlation of the European Medieval Demography and the Crusades: where's exactly all the relevant hard evidence used by you to reach such fascinating conclusion?



For the record, would you still insist that the historical events a half millennium earlier were the cause of the Crusades?
sylla1 is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 11:27 AM   #57
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Another superb summary:
Quote:
In the world around the Mediterranean, two forms of holy war did emerge.

First, the Muslim jihad.
Much has been written about this, and I wish only to point out its salient features.
Jihad is a religious duty for the Muslim community to propagate Islam, employing coercion of various sorts as needed, until the whole world professes Islam or is subject to its laws.
At times, especially when the caliph, or other religious authority, proclaims it, this obligation takes the form of armed conflict.
Those who die in the struggle are acclaimed as martyrs and are believed to go straight to paradise.
The doctrine of jihad may be traced to the earliest days of Islam, although maybe not directly to Muhammad himself.
The jihad did not become one of the five “pillars” of Islam, but it was kept alive by preaching and the attractiveness of the ideal of martyrdom and paradise and the more tangible rewards of booty and plunder.
In essence, it was aggressive and bent on conquest.
Of course, not every war waged by Muslim powers, including those against
nonbelievers, was a holy war.
Many were simply tribal, ethnic, or even national conflicts whose roots often went back to pre-Islamic times.

In Western Europe the idea of a holy war developed later and for different reasons.
So much has been written about this that there is no need to enter into detail.
First, we must remember that what we call a crusade was, especially during the first century or so, a pilgrimage, and those who took part in it were pilgrims; it was a holy journey (iter, passagium), not a holy war.
It was regarded primarily as defensive, that is, armed escorts were to protect pilgrims on their way to the sacred shrines of Christendom and were to recover or defend the holy sites in Palestine.
This defensive character differentiated it from jihad, as did the fact that it did not advocate the forceful imposition of Christianity upon others.
In subsequent centuries, admittedly, and for some participants it did take
on a more belligerent character.
One need only recall the so-called Albigensian crusades or the one that sacked Constantinople in 1204.
Still, the notion of using force to convert the infidel was, with few exceptions, foreign to Christianity, East and West.
But the Crusades were proclaimed by the highest religious authority in the West, the pope; they were directed toward a religious end, the protection of fellow Christians in the East and the recovery and defense of the holy places; and those who took part were promised religious rewards, particularly the remission of sin.

For the Byzantines, it must be said at the outset, both ideas and forms of holy war— jihad and crusade—were abhorrent...
But, in general, the Byzantines never seemed to understand why all those Western knights and their followers were marching through their land. Restoring Jerusalem to Christian rule was perhaps a laudable objective, but was it worth such an immense effort, fraught with so many perils and uncertainties and carried out with such brutality?
Constantinople, after all, was the New Jerusalem, the true holy city.
The Byzantines, always practical, were far more interested in possessing Antioch because of its important strategic position than in holding Jerusalem with all its sentimental value.
Pilgrimage they understood and warfare they understood, but the conjoining of the two they did not understand.
They would have been utterly appalled at the preaching of St. Bernard and his call for the extermination of the infidel (delenda penitus), as well as his assertion that killing an enemy of Christ was not homicide, but malecide.
Source: Defenders of the Christian People: Holy War in Byzantium; by George T. Dennis, within The Crusades from the Perspective of Byzantium and the Muslim World, Angeliki E. Laiou & Roy Parviz Mottahedeh (Editors) Dumbarton Oaks, 2001.

(Yup, emphasis is mine)
sylla1 is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #58
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Some additional illustrative pearls on this fascinating topic:
Quote:
What, then, was it about late eleventh-century Europe which made the First Crusade possible? One basic feature was the thorough militarization of society, a characteristic rooted in long centuries of development...

The launching of the First Crusade was made possible by a revolution which had overtaken the western Church since the middle of the eleventh century.
From the 1040s a group of reformers, first with the support of the German emperor Henry III and then in opposition to his son Henry IV, had taken control of the papacy.
This institution they shrewdly identified as the best means to pursue their programme of eliminating abuses within the Church.

The reformers’ programme is often known as the Gregorian Reform after one of its most energetic and vociferous proponents, Pope Gregory VII (1073–85).

The full fruits of the administrative reforms were not to be realized until the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.
But by the 1090s an important and lasting start had been made.
A consequence was that when Pope Urban launched the First Crusade he was able to mobilize the resources, enthusiasm, and communication skills of many individual clerics and religious communities, a body of collective support which had already grown sensitive to papal initiatives.

The preachers of the crusade would have been wasting their breath, of course, had not many Europeans been eager to respond to what was held out as a voluntary undertaking.
The crusade was proposed as a devotional act of pilgrimage, and therein lay its attraction...

In the closing years of the eleventh century the belief remained entrenched that penitential acts could suffice to wash away sin.

This does much to explain the potent appeal of the First Crusade, which Urban II conceived as an act so expensive, long, and emotionally and physically arduous that it amounted to a ‘satisfactory’ penance capable of undoing all the sins which intending crusaders confessed.
Urban knew how his audiences’ minds worked...

The impact was doubled by Urban II’s tour of southern and western France between the autumn of 1095 and the summer of 1096.
Moving as an imposing authority figure through areas which had seldom seen a king for decades, the pope drew attention to himself by consecrating churches and altars, honouring the localities through which he passed by means of elaborate liturgical ceremonial.
(Once again the close relationship between ritual and communal religious excitement is evident.)

In the areas not covered by the papal itinerary other churchmen busied themselves in generating interest.
Monks seem to have been among the most active recruiting agents: many surviving charters reveal departing crusaders turning to monasteries for spiritual reassurance and material assistance.
Enthusiasm for the crusade was most intense in France, Italy, and western Germany, but few areas of Latin Christendom were entirely unaffected.
As one historian memorably put it, a ‘nerve of exquisite feeling’ had been
touched in the West.

The proof was palpable, as between the spring and autumn of 1096 people in their tens of thousands took to the road with one aim—to free Jerusalem.
Source: Origins, by Marcus Bull, pp. 21-34, within:

The Oxford History of the Crusades: Jonathan Riley-Smith: 9780192803122: Amazon.com: Books
The Oxford History of the Crusades: Jonathan Riley-Smith: 9780192803122: Amazon.com: Books

sylla1 is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 12:18 PM   #59

DreamWeaver's Avatar
Misanthropologist
 
Joined: Aug 2010
From: Wales
Posts: 10,197
Blog Entries: 6

The matter is quite simple.

Long ago in post 27 I pointed out how Prof Damen’s statement didn’t add up for the Second and Third Crusades. My arguments have since then been purely in reference to these two specific events as I highlighted in post 27 and subsequent posts. Discourse upon the First Crusade must be treated separately. Likewise any accusations stating that I am cherry picking Damen’s argument and trying to deny it as a whole when I am and have clearly been only referring to this specific segment in these circumstances and why I disagree with it, would be utterly fallacious as is clearly self-evident, because it was stated. Those people who claim otherwise probably just can’t read or are just setting up strawmen because they have nothing better to do, liars or trolls of the worst order.

So why is it an issue? Damen refers to 40 year periods between the first three crusades 1099-1144/1150-1187. The problem is simple causality. The events of 1144 the Fall of Edessa and 1187 with the fall of Jerusalem occurred only in those years because of events in the Latin East unconnected to the demographic cycles of the Latin West. Who and what Zengi or Saladin decided to attack does not determine the rate of birth and population levels going in Western Europe at the same time. Zengi and Saladin made those decisions based on local and regional events with their local Frankish adversaries. European demographics does not dictate the chronology. Thus that the Second and Third Crusades might come in 40 year blocks, which happens to align with generational demographic progressions is purely coincidental. Had Edessa/Jerusalem fallen earlier/later then the generational element right there, the 40 years on average would make no sense. Eugenius III in Quantum Praedecessores and Gregory VIII in 1187 with Lauditer Tremendi only issue them because of their respective events. As is stated in those very works lamenting their respective situations. The chronology is made by the events of the Latin East, that it should be about 40 years, is only because of the rise to power and actions of the historical protagonists. The 40 years is not based on anything else. That it should be 1144, not 1143 or 1146 or 1150 is based on Zangi’s actions.

Secondly if European demographics were a cause for the declaration of the Second and Third Crusades, then such concerns do not seem to have been mentioned in the edicts, letters and appeals sent out. The fate and disastrous events of the Latin East are the subject material that concerns them. The remaining source material does not suggest demographics. This may be an argument from silence, but one can only work with the material left to us. In the absence of material to the contrary any arguments against it are purely supposition and nothing more. When crusading bulls and appeals were issued between 1144 and 1187 it was in response to diplomatic envoys from the Latin East being present to conduct diplomacy with the Latin West for their needs. The West reacts to the East.

In 1127 to 1129 Baldwin II appealed to the Latin West seeking assistance, he did find a husband for his daughter Melisende in Fulk V of Anjou who brought with him many noblemen according to William of Tyre. Despite the efforts of Hugh de Payns of the Templars and Honorius II and the Council of Troyes, no greater response was elicited. PL. 166 cols. 1279-1280.

In 1146 Bishop Hugh of Jabala reaches the west and informs Eugenius III and Louis VII of events, Second Crusade ensues.

In 1157 Adrian IV appeals to the magnates of the west, appealing for help for the Latin East. No help is forth coming. PL. 188 Col.1537-1538.

In 1165 and 1166. Reissue of Quantum Praedecessores by Alexander III after arrival of Templar Geoffrey Fulcher from the Latin East. Appeals from the papacy repeat the events of Edessa and all subsequent events thereafter. No significant response by the populace of the Latin West. PL. 200 Cols. 384-386.

In 1169 Archbishop Frederick of Tyre tours the Latin West, Kings of France, England and the Papacy. Alexander III issues Inter Omnia. No response again from the west. PL 200 cols. 599-601

1179 Third Lateran Council discusses the Holy Land and its Fate, no crusading enterprises result.

In 1181 Alexander III issues Cor Nostrum to magnates of the west calling for help for the Latin East after Templars brought news of the condition of Baldwin IV and the fate of Vadum Jacob. PL 200 cols. 1294-1297
In 1184/1185 Patriarch Heraclius and the master of the Hospital Roger de Moulins travelled Europe, Papacy, Kings of France and England, offering them the Keys of Jerusalem if they would come eastwards. Prince John Lackland appealed to his father Henry II to let him go, he wouldn’t. Henry II took the cross over 10 years previously and had still not gone. Luicius III re issues Cor Nostrum. Still no crusades. Roger of Howden, Gesta 332-333. Gerald of Wales.

1187 News of Hattin and the fall of Jerusalem arrive, a crusade ensues.
In addition to this the Latin East was in contact quite regularly with the prominent magnates of the Latin West. Between 1163-1173 under King Amalric eight letters were sent, the Patriarch of Jerusalem and the Military Orders sent 13 in that same period, mainly to Louis VII of France and Henry II of England. If there were demographic issues in Europe, the Monarchs of two of the greatest realms would be well aware of it, since those unwanted individuals would be in their kingdoms, and since it was from their lands that many of the Second and Third Crusaders were drawn from. Yet despite consistent appeals and request for help outside of the 1145-50/1187-92 contexts little was actually given. Henry II despite promising to take the cross in 1173 fails to actually ever set out. If there were demographic issues they did nothing about it.

Thirdly if demographics were an issue then why throughout all the appeals to the Latin West did those extra bodies that were surplus not go to the Latin East. There is no evidence for mass migration and settlement. Some settle in the wake of the Second Crusade and others in the wake of the Third, but there is no evidence of anything large-scale, and those that do are of the highest levels of Frankish society. There is no rapid urban or rural development growth of the lower orders. They were not encouraged by ecclesiastical or secular powers to do so, and when opportunities for crusades appeared as listed above, they did not take them up, despite apparent demographic issues. Action is only taken when an event of suitable magnitude occurs (Edessa/Jerusalem) inspired them to do something. If this were some sort of demographic build-up of excess younger sons, then all the opportunities to vent them along the way were ignored. If such demographic trends were a concern then nobody did anything about them when opportunity permitted, and opportunity regularly permitted.
Did the demographics of Europe seriously and noticeable change between the years of 1129-1144 or 1179-1187? Highly unlikely on any quantifiable scale used by the people of the period, not like they have a convenient census to check up on, they didn’t just realise one morning that there were too many people so they should go crusading. Only with the shock of Edessa and Jerusalem did something occur.

Demogrpahic trends are long drawn out affairs, not radically changing from year to year (short of some great natural calamity). These potential trends would have made themselves noticed over decades and if they were an issue then potential polices both ecclesiastical and secular would have resulted. Was 1187 really different to 1181, why not take the chance in 1181? What is notable, what is obvious is the man made events of 1144 and 1187 the urged on crusading. The Papacy in its issuing of crusades is quite reactive to stimuli, not proactive in getting rid of these excess bodies. The same is true for secular powers. Demographic trends just don’t seem to make much sense. They are coincidental to those events made by man, beneficial but coincidental.

This is of course all summed up in a rather excellent book by Jonathan Phillips who goes into much greater details on the matter of East/West relations in the period 1119-1187.

Defenders of the Holy Land: Relations between the Latin East and the West, 1119-1187: Amazon.co.uk: Jonathan Phillips: Books
Defenders of the Holy Land: Relations between the Latin East and the West, 1119-1187: Amazon.co.uk: Jonathan Phillips: Books


Yet I have already explained all this in previous posts. This is just more eloquent.

Now if you would like some links to read stuff. I see you have some secondary literature, how about some primary.

PL. 166 cols. 1279-1280. - Patrologiae cursus completus : Series latina : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
PL. 188 Col.1537-1538. - Patrologiae cursus completus : Series latina : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

PL. 200 Cols. 384-386.
PL 200 cols. 1294-1297 - Patrologiae cursus completus : Series latina : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Letters to Louis VII and the Papacy and others can be found here RRH No’s 382-384, 394, 396, 398, 399, 403-404, 406-407, 410-411, 435,459, 463, 495,497, 505-507. Regista Regni Hierosolymitani (1097-1291) : Röhricht, Reinhold, 1842-1905 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
DreamWeaver is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #60
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 19,934

Quote:
POPE GREGORY VII CALLS FOR HOLY WAR

The age of the crusades might have begun two decades earlier-in 1074 rather than 1095.

In 1073, two years after the disastrous Byzantine defeat at Manzikert, the Byzantine emperor, Michael VII, appealed to Pope Gregory VII for aid
against the Seljuk Turks.

On 1st March 1074 Gregory dispatched a letter to the Christians of the West, appealing for them to go to the aid of their fellows in the East:
"The example of our Redeemer and the duty of brotherly love demand that we set our hearts on delivering our siblings.
Just as He offered His life for us, so we should offer our lives for our siblings.
Let it be known that we, trusting in God's mercy and the might of His power, are preparing in every possible way to carry aid to the Christian empire as soon as possible, with God's help."

The Investiture Controversy broke out soon afterward and nothing immediately came of Gregory's plan.

But his successors did not forget the dream of armed intervention to aid eastern Christians against the Muslims.
Soruce: Chistendom and the Umma, by Alfred J. Andrea, page 28, within:

Crusades: The Illustrated History: Thomas F. Madden: 9780472031276: Amazon.com: Books
Crusades: The Illustrated History: Thomas F. Madden: 9780472031276: Amazon.com: Books

sylla1 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
crusades, reason


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Reason Why [Japan vs US] ? Richard Potato War and Military History 25 April 26th, 2011 02:19 PM
Where does reason come from? coberst Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 23 August 4th, 2009 07:39 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.