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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #11

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I agree with you Crystal, my views on the historical accuracy of a certain Elizabethan dramatist are well known
I can never spell that bard's name right for some reason.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #12
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W-a-g-g-l-e-s-t-i-c-k since it's apparent he's the new MacBeth. Best leave that there before we end up spitting and swearing, or worse.. reciting The Merchant of Venice.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:44 PM   #13

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Agreed, the fate of the two princes is not a subject of the OP and the reforms instigated by Richard are contary to the later assesment of certain Tudor personalities whose flair for literature outweighed their historical credentials
I think if you read lines six and seven of the OP carefully it appears that Dried Fruit is by implication trying to find out how a King that could bring forward such far reaching, sensible legislation can be reconciled with the widely held view that he was an infanticide. That is how I read it anyway. If however you hold to your view that the fate of the Princes is not germane to the OP then why in the name of goodness are you dragging Shakespeare into the debate? It is on the one hand not okay to mention the fate of the Princes but it is quite all right to bring the discredited Tudor tradition in. A faint whiff of double standards at play here.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #14

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Just a couple of points to take issue with. The Council of the North was instituted in 1472 by Edward 1V and not Richard although he did use the statute to create a virtual Palatine in the North. As to benevolences while Richard did legislate for there removal he later resorted to forced loans which were arguably even worse. While agreeing that on the whole his reforms were good I think this has no bearing on whether or not he destroyed his nephews.
His attenton to the people in the North were one of the reasons he was well loved up here, despite the harsh nature of the loans, imo. He did more good for the people than people believe, and attempted to carry on his brothers good will.

Unfortunately for him, until it is established firmly, the mystery behind his nephews will be a taint associated with him. Hopefully one day this mystery will solved.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #15

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His attenton to the people in the North were one of the reasons he was well loved up here, despite the harsh nature of the loans, imo. He did more good for the people than people believe, and attempted to carry on his brothers good will.

Unfortunately for him, until it is established firmly, the mystery behind his nephews will be a taint associated with him. Hopefully one day this mystery will solved.
Yes he did a sterling job in the North and this is reinforced by the murder of Northumberland, who failed to support him at Bosworth, by Northeners who were disenchanted with what they perceived as his desertion of Richard.

The mass of circumstantial evidence points to Richard being responsible for the death of his nephews but, as you rightly point out, there is no hard evidence as yet one way or the other.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #16

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I think if you read lines six and seven of the OP carefully it appears that Dried Fruit is by implication trying to find out how a King that could bring forward such far reaching, sensible legislation can be reconciled with the widely held view that he was an infanticide.

And who may i ask is the architecht of this widely held view, would that be Shakespeare by any chance.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #17

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Yes he did a sterling job in the North and this is reinforced by the murder of Northumberland, who failed to support him at Bosworth, by Northeners who were disenchanted with what they percieved as his desertion of Richard.

The mass of circumstantial evidence points to Richard being responsible for the death of his nephews but, as you rightly point out, there is no hard evidence as yet one way or the other.
Yes, unfortunately, circumstance does seem to point in his direction. I suppose; and in no way am I condoning siblicide or regicide; that this was a common denominator for parties that were in a winning position, and wanted to extinguish any future threat to their reign.

It was a harsh business back in those days. It would certainly be a taint for him, but it should not destroy all what he accomplished/wanted to accomplish at the time.

That being said, It would have been interesting to see how a continuing Yorkist line would have dealt with future problems, that faced the amalgamated family lines, in the Tudors.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #18

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His attenton to the people in the North were one of the reasons he was well loved up here, despite the harsh nature of the loans, imo. He did more good for the people than people believe, and attempted to carry on his brothers good will.

Unfortunately for him, until it is established firmly, the mystery behind his nephews will be a taint associated with him. Hopefully one day this mystery will solved.
A lot of good things that he had done were unrecognized and have been left untold. He was well loved by the people who knew him, as much as the people in the north knew him best.

As for the truth to come out the big wig historians are still intent on talking rubbish about Richard and The Princes in the Tower. I don't think that anybody can take what Tudor propagandist as truth.

So we are left with people trying to establish the reason for the Tudors to take the throne and the story is not that convincing.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #19

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And who may i ask is the architecht of this widely held view, would that be Shakespeare by any chance.
Put it this way if I want to read a damn good play then I read Shakespeare on the other hand if I want to read a history of Richard the III I look to decent historians like Paul Murray Kendal. The Tudor tradition has been rightly discredited for years and I don't know any modern historian who is daft enough to take it seriously. I have formed my opinion on the nature of King Richard purely from the primary source material up to the period of 1485 alone.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:47 PM   #20
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His attenton to the people in the North were one of the reasons he was well loved up here, despite the harsh nature of the loans, imo. He did more good for the people than people believe, and attempted to carry on his brothers good will.

Unfortunately for him, until it is established firmly, the mystery behind his nephews will be a taint associated with him. Hopefully one day this mystery will solved.
And solutions might be found in St George's, Windsor, sir? It seems Richard felt more comfortable in the North of England, as Edward's Viceroy and which he had quietened down, holding back the Scots, and where he was happy, where his son was born.

There's enough to think Richard gained a lot of loyalty up there, and among loyalty, Yorkshire was his home. Much different to his London seat and its court. How to reconcile the Princes with Richard's record? He doesn't strike me as able to kill his nephews and stuff them under the stairs, he may have done or allowed what had to be done, but the more you study the man the more you suspect there was a more honourable fate for his nephews.

And rather than disliking Kingship as some suggest, Richard might have found it much different and more difficult than council governance. It's interesting that he got ready for battle in the North.
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