Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 12th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #31
Lecturer
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 276

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Paul View Post
..For the OP, what are your thoughts so far?
interesting.

i think its remarkable that Riichard has retained a reputation for being an able adminstrator despite the all encompassing hatchet-job that the Tudors did on him - he's accused of being a child-killer, wife-killer, King-killer, and of having designs on his neice, all with the implied Tudor threat of 'believe this, or else...', yet somehow he is still was remembered as an able/talented administrator of the Realm.

in a way there's a parallel (ish) with Henry VII - the Tudors were desperate to establish Henry as not just the rightful king (because his claim was somewhat remote), but a 'good' king, yet despite 100+ years of Tudor PR, much of it undertaken by one of the greatest dramatists of the English language, Henry VII is 'known' by every school kid to have been misery and tight-fisted and rightly paranoid about the strength of his grip on the crown.

hardly a resounding success for the practitioners of the dark arts of PR...
Dried Fruit is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:04 AM   #32

funakison's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 3,254
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dried Fruit View Post
interesting.

i think its remarkable that Riichard has retained a reputation for being an able adminstrator despite the all encompassing hatchet-job that the Tudors did on him - he's accused of being a child-killer, wife-killer, King-killer, and of having designs on his neice, all with the implied Tudor threat of 'believe this, or else...', yet somehow he is still was remembered as an able/talented administrator of the Realm.

in a way there's a parallel (ish) with Henry VII - the Tudors were desperate to establish Henry as not just the rightful king (because his claim was somewhat remote), but a 'good' king, yet despite 100+ years of Tudor PR, much of it undertaken by one of the greatest dramatists of the English language, Henry VII is 'known' by every school kid to have been misery and tight-fisted and rightly paranoid about the strength of his grip on the crown.

hardly a resounding success for the practitioners of the dark arts of PR...

Much of Henry VIIs perception of success / failure as a king at school kid level comes from the fact that he was preceeded and succeded by two larger than life figures. He is portrayed as a warm up act for the rest of the tudor dynasty. As a child i was taught, Bosworth, Star Chamber, Mortons Fork and that was about it.
funakison is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #33

Von Ranke's Avatar
aka Dita Von Teese
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: Thistleland
Posts: 4,282

The one positive thing that can be said for the Tudor tradition is that if it had not been for the likes of Thomas More and Shakespeare Richard III may have been remembered as little more than a footnote in history. Paul Murray Kendal may not be universally loved as a historian but in his eminantly readable biography of Richard he absolutely shreds the Tudor tradition. The paradox for me is that despite More and Will's obvious shortcomings as historians had it not been for their hatchet jobs on Richard there would probably be no Richard III society and few would have heard of him apart from historians of the period.
Von Ranke is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:09 AM   #34
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Pax juxta probitatem
Posts: 1,621
Blog Entries: 14

Good, Crystal Rainbow. I get to do my study and my work from home in a great sunny space down here in Devon. I am interested in your blogs and what you have to say, no doubt we'll learn something.

This morning I was wondering, if he was involved, what Richard's motives might have been in the summer of 1483. And if some agree that a pragmatic solution happened then, and we consider all the other actors plus the question where did the princes really end up, there could be fairer analyses.

Richard's hand may have been forced by the Sanctuary Plot, or Hastings's conspiracy based on loyalty to Edward IV's family. Tyrell in his 1502 confession mentioned that the two bodies were removed from the Tower but he did not know where. If this were true then where were they brought?

For the OP, one event that you might consider is Richard turning the tables on the Wydevilles, " a greedy and troublesome lot who would have poisoned the ear of young Edward V". By taking over, and through the reforms he did make during his two year reign, he would have ended both the Wydeville hegemony and Edward IV's rotten legacy of corruption and decadence. This could be important.

And if Richard was involved in the princes' removal it was one of the most bloodless coups ever.
John Paul is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:18 AM   #35

funakison's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 3,254
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Ranke View Post
The one positive thing that can be said for the Tudor tradition is that if it had not been for the likes of Thomas More and Shakespeare Richard III may have been remembered as little more than a footnote in history.

I agree, Thomas More and Shakespeare may not have painted Richard III in a flattering light but they did publicise his two year rein and guarantee his place in history. Where are the plays and films about victorious Henry Tudor. Now if he had sucessfully invaded France, butchered the Scots or had more wives than is customary perhaps we would talk of him more
funakison is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:29 AM   #36

Von Ranke's Avatar
aka Dita Von Teese
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: Thistleland
Posts: 4,282

Quote:
Originally Posted by funakison View Post
I agree, Thomas More and Shakespeare may not have painted Richard III in a flattering light but they did publicise his two year rein and guarantee his place in history. Where are the plays and films about victorious Henry Tudor. Now if he had sucessfully invaded France, butchered the Scots or had more wives than is customary perhaps we would talk of him more
Aye Henry was what you might term one of the most boring monarchs in history. He was far too busy counting his gold and pouring over the royal accounts to do what good medieval Kings were supposed to do which was, as you rightly point out, invading France and sorting out us troublesome Scots.
Von Ranke is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #37
Lecturer
 
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 276

Quote:
Originally Posted by funakison View Post
Much of Henry VIIs perception of success / failure as a king at school kid level comes from the fact that he was preceeded and succeded by two larger than life figures. He is portrayed as a warm up act for the rest of the tudor dynasty. As a child i was taught, Bosworth, Star Chamber, Mortons Fork and that was about it.
if thats true (and i have some sympathy with the view), why isn't he percieved more as a non-entity than a monarch with, if not a bad reputation, one that isn't exactly flattering?

i can think of a number of 'non-entity' monarchs about whom i could tell you absolutely nothing - and there are probably more who'se historical insignificance has lead me to forget about them completely - so if Henry VII falls into the 'a non-enity surrounded by bright lights' category, why does Henry retain his tight-fisted reputation when the claims to fame (true or otherwise) of his predessor and successor outshine him completely?

did Henry VII (about whom i know little) do anything noteworthy apart from defeat Richard III and spawn Henry VIII?
Dried Fruit is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:36 AM   #38

Halomanuk2's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2012
From: Flitwick,Bedfordshire,UK
Posts: 221

He strengthened the navy and created the first dry dock and he created the worlds first police force in his Justices of the Peace.
He also traded very very well and made England a very rich country.
Halomanuk2 is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:45 AM   #39

Von Ranke's Avatar
aka Dita Von Teese
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: Thistleland
Posts: 4,282

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halomanuk2 View Post
He strengthened the navy and created the first dry dock and he created the worlds first police force in his Justices of the Peace.
He also traded very very well and made England a very rich country.
Indeed he did Halo and those are noteworthy attributes but if like his son he had invaded France and slaughtered the Scottish nobility, which his deputy Norfolk did at Flodden, his reputation would have been gauranteed.
Von Ranke is offline  
Old December 12th, 2012, 06:53 AM   #40

Halomanuk2's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2012
From: Flitwick,Bedfordshire,UK
Posts: 221

Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Ranke View Post
Indeed he did Halo and those are noteworthy attributes but if like his son he had invaded France and slaughtered the Scottish nobility, which his deputy Norfolk did at Flodden, his reputation would have been gauranteed.
Oh absolutely,he just got on with things and focused more on trade,unlike his warmongering son,who to be fair though,did carry on making the fleet bigger and better.
Halomanuk2 is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
iii, reformer, richard


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Peter the Great - Reformer or Revolutionary sources andybeesley History Help 5 November 22nd, 2011 09:13 AM
The First Reformer in Recorded Human History Satuf Ancient History 1 March 12th, 2011 10:59 PM
The First Tax Reformer okamido Ancient History 8 December 8th, 2010 09:53 AM
Medieval Serbo-Greek Empire: social and legal context, and legal transplants from Byzantine Law Soloviev Medieval and Byzantine History 1 May 30th, 2007 01:46 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.