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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:18 PM   #61

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OK. I agree that the Arizona site with the chiseled Runes rock was probably a hoax. But it is still plausible. I saw another episode where that Irish monk or bishop, Saint Brendan (or similar) made it to Canada and came back to tell about it. Unfortunately he didn't survive his second try. The theory with that was that he and his fellow monks took their boat via Iceland, Greenland, and then down the coast a ways (Newfoundland?). As for the Bristol fishermen, they could have done the same thing going over to Canada, then taken the direct route back to England with the Gulf Stream and favorable winds (it they were clever enough).

That Arizona site was in the Mustang Mountains, a not very impressive small range near Fort Huachuca, AZ. I was stationed there 1969-71. And I'm familiar with the region, as I had a bird watching hobby at the time (lots of Mexican species). There was vandalism of a pre-historic archaeological site on a private ranch on the border. It was supposedly by univeresitry students. My ex-wife and I found a few remaining small sherds of Native-American pottery (black and white decoration on one side), along with a few small delicate arrowheads, when we were visiting that ranch. Actually, my eyes were attuned to movement (bird watching), and not pottery and arrowheads. My ex was the one who spotted and lifted those souvenirs (now presumably somewhere in Germany). My point is that university students would have been capable of coming up with that Rune stone hoax in the Mustang Mountains.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 01:10 AM   #62
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A university student hoax sounds much more likely!
Have you come across Tim Severin's book The Brendan Voyage? They built an Irish leather curragh and sailed it across the North Atlantic. Lots of descriptions from the stories of St Brendan can be interpreted as being eye witness accounts of icebergs and whales, and an island of birds which is still there (I forget which island it was). So it was certainly possible for a Dark Age Irish boat to get that far. There are even records of Irish monks in Greenland, when the Vikings got there.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 07:40 PM   #63

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No ^, I haven't read any book on the Brendan voyage. But now my interest has been piqued, and I'll be looking for literature on that subject. One thing I might add is that people in the olden days read nature more than people do today. In Ireland, for example, American song birds show up now and then, having been blown off course on migration or etc. Anyone could see that they were not Irish/European birds; and they must have come from another but unknown land. Wild geese migrate from Iceland/Greenland to the British Isles for the winter, among other smaller species. Irish monks had only to follow them northward to hit Iceland, etc.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 03:42 PM   #64

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Not that it has anything to do with Scotland, and I saw that show advertised and unfortunately missed it, but why do you suppose that people did not manage to come across by way of Russia to Alaska? There's not much distance. Maybe they did, heck I don't know. But there's a lot less distance between Russia and Alaska than between England and Virginia or Massachusetts.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 04:51 PM   #65

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Not that it has anything to do with Scotland, and I saw that show advertised and unfortunately missed it, but why do you suppose that people did not manage to come across by way of Russia to Alaska? There's not much distance. Maybe they did, heck I don't know. But there's a lot less distance between Russia and Alaska than between England and Virginia or Massachusetts.
In the case of that hour-long program, they maintained that Hurech and his party were from south Staffordshire. There are houses carved out of sandstone there in England. They also showed similar houses carved out of sandstone at a site in New Mexico; hinting that they could have also been there, showing the natives how to do it. As for myself, I'm very hard of hearing now, and use closed captioning for viewing TV. So I miss stuff when not actually looking at it.

As for those several little pieces of pottery my ex collected (not the Mustang Mountains Runes site), if I recall, not all of them had black and white decorations. Those were just the ones that attracted my attention. Looking at Google, I see that site is on the outer fringe of the Casas Grandes culture area (centered in Chihuahua, Mexico); but also close to the Hohokam area. This site was located in the southern Sulfur Springs Valley at the border. At one time that area was grassland or yucca grassland. But over grazing by American ranchers has degraded it to Chihuahuan Desert scrub. Those delicate arrowheads may have been meant for prairie dogs that are now extirpated from that area. But there are still kangaroo rats around there, some of them quite large.

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Old February 12th, 2013, 10:21 PM   #66

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Ah, i found something about Clemence de boteler. But it seems she is just one of several candidates, beside Agatha de ferrers. The reasons for the hypothesis for a clence is a report from tewkesbury "regina clemencie". I can't say what the annalist meant, but one could translate is different than Queen Clemence.
Hi, me again.

After looking some more at my tree, I am really not entirely secure with Clemence de Boteler being Joan's mom. It looks like Clemence de Fougeres, 1170-1252 is also a good candidate. Her first name Clemence matches historical accounts, and she is the same age as Clemence de Boteler. Furthermore, there is no argument about her being in Normandy, although she died in Chester, England. Her line is Norman, possibly Danish in ultimate origin. If so, then forget Aethelred and Lady Godiva. The new line is apparently more obscure. On the other hand, she was related to Emma de Normandie, second wife of Aethelred (if I remembered it right).

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Old February 12th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #67
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Hi, me again.

After looking some more at my tree, I am really not entirely secure with Clemence de Boteler being Joan's mom. It looks like Clemence de Fougeres, 1170-1252 is also a good candidate. Her first name Clemence matches historical accounts, and she is the same age as Clemence de Boteler. Furthermore, there is no argument about her being in Normandy, although she died in Chester, England. Her line is Norman, possibly Danish in ultimate origin. If so, then forget Aethelred and Lady Godiva. The new line is apparently more obscure. On the other hand, she was related to Emma de Normandie, second wife of Aethelred (if I remembered it right).
yes, it is sometimes problematic to say who is the mother and sometimes even the father and who not. I decided to write NN (no name) in such cases and to let the question open who it was or if I have a family to which these member belonged I write e.g. "Boteler ?"
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Old February 13th, 2013, 03:27 AM   #68

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A university student hoax sounds much more likely!
Have you come across Tim Severin's book The Brendan Voyage? They built an Irish leather curragh and sailed it across the North Atlantic. Lots of descriptions from the stories of St Brendan can be interpreted as being eye witness accounts of icebergs and whales, and an island of birds which is still there (I forget which island it was). So it was certainly possible for a Dark Age Irish boat to get that far. There are even records of Irish monks in Greenland, when the Vikings got there.
I have got that book, its brilliant and found that voyage very feasible to have made a journey to Newfoundland. They had made a lovely piece of music to it as well.
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Old February 14th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #69

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I still am now leaning toward Clemence De Fougeres. But I don't think she is clearly related to Emma De Normandie. The problem is with all the erroneous entries on Ancestry. Everyone makes up their own plausible scenario. I read somewhere that Joan married Llewelyn of Wales in Chester, England (close to Wales). That is also where Clemence De Fougeres died. So that is another hint.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #70

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Continuing to research my ancestry. I've tried to start assigning each relative, or potential relative, their own binder sleeve, and I have them also on ancestry.com....I hope to get a large, folded out family tree made up by taping paper together.

I go through phases with it....sometimes, nothing for weeks or a month, and then a weekend of twelve hour days researching.

I am going to try to find some of the documents that I am referencing.....and take copies of them.

It would appear that through my mother's paternal lineage, I've got relatives in several of the notable families of olden days.

Been busy. Sold our business. Buying a new house, moving. It's been hectic. Survived a surgery.

Hoping to visit the beautiful UK within the year. Want to go to museums, the towns they lived in, etc. Researching out as best I can. Gonna make a plan! :-)

How have y'all been?
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