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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old February 15th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #41
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Iconoclasm is considered a miserable heresy by the Catholics too, not only by the Orthodox.
Iconoclasm was not a Heresy.
The reason it happened was because a lot of people wanted to become monks in order to avoid military service, and a lot of other people were venerating the icons almost in a paganistic way out of ignorance and a false way of praying in the Christian faith.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 04:06 AM   #42

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I know about these things but I didn't go into details.
Well you should.
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The hunger was devastating in the Arab camp.
Have you heard of the Greek fire?
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Without also other factors from the Arab side, this whole thing would have never happened.
Have you heard of the 1st Arab siege of Constantinople under Constantine IV, where they were also beat without your aforementioned factors?
Don't treat me like retard I have some knowledge in Byzantine history although isn't my main interest. And yes I have heard about first siege of Constantinople but what this has to do with the topic? I have never claimed that Arabs are unbeatable just in the second siege without the listed factors isn't sure whether Byzantines will make it. And Leo wasn't sure too that's why he asked caesar Tervel for help.

You just exaggerate with Leo's greatness.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 04:09 AM   #43
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Jesus preached closeness to God, and they are means through which people are drawn closer to God. BTW, did you watch Miracle of Marcelino (Marcelino pan y vino) Marcelino pan y vino (1955) - IMDb?
I've seen that movie long time ago, it's a very moving one.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #44
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No, unfortunately not. I am Orthodox, but for the present I am a "non-practicing" one.
Same with me, but don't feel bad about it, there are many millions of people not only in the Orthodox church but also Catholics and the different Protestant faiths who feel that way.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 04:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by pustinyak View Post
Don't treat me like retard I have some knowledge in Byzantine history although isn't my main interest. .
I don't! you missunderstood me.

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Originally Posted by pustinyak View Post
And yes I have heard about first siege of Constantinople but what this has to do with the topic? .
It was mentioned in order o remind that the Byzantines were able to beat the Arabs even with only their own forces.

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Originally Posted by pustinyak View Post
I have never claimed that Arabs are unbeatable just in the second siege without the listed factors isn't sure whether Byzantines will make it. And Leo wasn't sure too that's why he asked caesar Tervel for help..
The help given by Tervel undoubtely was appreciated, and all your mentioned points were contributing factors in the final catastrophe of the Arab expedition. No doubt about it.

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You just exaggerate with Leo's greatness.
Leo III was one of the greatest emperors in the Byzantine empire. He was able to beat the Arabs repeatedly in the field and stop their expansion at that particular period in time.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 05:23 AM   #46
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Iconoclasm was not a Heresy.
The reason it happened was because a lot of people wanted to become monks in order to avoid military service, and a lot of other people were venerating the icons almost in a paganistic way out of ignorance and a false way of praying in the Christian faith.
Perhaps you mean that it was not a heresy when it appeared, because there was no Church dogma concerning images, but neither iconodulia was a heresy, and the cult of images was very spread in the Church. The long-lasting Iconoclast controversy ceased with the victory of the iconodules, which is celebrated during the Sunday of Orthodoxy Sunday of Orthodoxy - OrthodoxWiki, the formulation of the Dogma of Holy Images and the definitive condemnation of iconoclasm as heresy happening during the Seventh Ecumenical Council (you may read its acts at: NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
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Old February 15th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #47

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Constantinople
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Roman Empire
(new) Hellenism
Great Schism
Ottomans
Greek Fire
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Old February 15th, 2013, 06:17 AM   #48
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In reality Ficino at the end there was a reconciliation between the two.
My position was that if an artist painted a picture of Christ or any other holy man to sell for personal profit, were the people obliged out of ignorance or fatalism to venerate it automatically as a holy material? I don't think so.
As I said before this thing was detrimental for the well functioning of the empire. Theodora, an iconodule which literally traslated means a slave of the icons, and who finally restored the icons acting as a regent for her son Michael III, never dared to express her true feelings while her husband emperor Theofilos was still alive. She would have een sent to a monastery a lot earlier than what she eventually did.

Last edited by falcon; February 15th, 2013 at 06:34 AM.
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Old February 15th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #49

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You miss few things here like the help of Tervel,
We have it on good authority that the Bulgars helped in defeating the Arabs, but whether they were actually fighting for the Byzantines is a more difficult question. Some scholars have suggested that it may have been an opportunistic attempt to take Constantinople for themselves.


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Originally Posted by falcon View Post
Iconoclasm was not a Heresy.
The reason it happened was because a lot of people wanted to become monks in order to avoid military service, and a lot of other people were venerating the icons almost in a paganistic way out of ignorance and a false way of praying in the Christian faith.
No one entertains such ideas today. It is generally accepted to have been born out of an attempt to re-assert imperial authority in the religious sphere, and needs to be seen in the context of the behaviour of emperors like Herakleios, Constans at Dvin and against Maximos the Confessor, Constantine IV's 680 council, and Justinian's Quinisext. The first volume is a summary of the arguments, the second makes the arguments:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Byzantine-Iconoclasm-Studies-Medieval/dp/1853997501/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360941553&sr=8-1&keywords=inventing+byzantine+iconoclasm"]Inventing Byzantine Iconoclasm (Studies in Early Medieval History): Leslie Brubaker: 9781853997501: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518%2BxOFlkuL.@@AMEPARAM@@518%2BxOFlkuL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Iconoclast-Era-c-680-850-History/dp/0521430933/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360941573&sr=1-1&keywords=byzantium+in+the+iconoclast"]Byzantium in the Iconoclast Era, c.680-850: A History: Leslie Brubaker, John Haldon: 9780521430937: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41eA1bU-S5L.@@AMEPARAM@@41eA1bU-S5L[/ame]
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Old February 15th, 2013, 06:25 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Kirialax View Post
We have it on good authority that the Bulgars helped in defeating the Arabs, but whether they were actually fighting for the Byzantines is a more difficult question. Some scholars have suggested that it may have been an opportunistic attempt to take Constantinople for themselves.
That, or the fact that they knew if Constantinople fell to the Arabs the'll be the next in line.
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