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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old November 20th, 2015, 08:48 AM   #21

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What he thought he was offering, and getting, and what was sold by the pope to the west as the goals of the crusades were entirely different things, I'm afraid.

Manuel II tried many years later too. Similiar result. Perhaps you should read the entire Rutgers Byzantine Series?

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Old November 20th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #22

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What he thought he was offering, and getting, and what was sold by the pope to the west as the goals of the crusades were entirely different things, I'm afraid.
Stop talking nonsense.

The crusaders were already excommunicated by the pope by the time the crusaders made the deal with Alexious and his nobles.

The pope had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The crusader army acted completely independently and alone.
(apart from the Venetian help ofc)

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Manuel II tried many years later too. Similiar result. Perhaps you should read the entire Rutgers Byzantine Series?
Completely different situation.
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Old November 20th, 2015, 05:36 PM   #23

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What a waste, but seeing your venue, not surprising. Your propaganda must trump mine, of course.

They were excommunicated for sacking a Roman Catholic city prior to getting to the City. But they were forgiven by the pope for that AFTER the Latin "patriarchate" was established at Constantinople.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 04:47 AM   #24

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What a waste, but seeing your venue, not surprising. Your propaganda must trump mine, of course.
...what?

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They were excommunicated for sacking a Roman Catholic city prior to getting to the City. But they were forgiven by the pope for that AFTER the Latin "patriarchate" was established at Constantinople.
No, they were pardoned after they offered the pope an immense sum of money that they looted from Constantinople.

It had nothing to do with the patriarchate.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 05:53 AM   #25
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...what?
No, they were pardoned after they offered the pope an immense sum of money that they looted from Constantinople.

It had nothing to do with the patriarchate.
so atrocities against brother christians are forgiven for money by first man of catholic church.
And situation is exploited to push rome agenda in region.
This was very damaging for relations and union of churches and is still today.

Last edited by Azatoth; November 21st, 2015 at 06:00 AM.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 06:51 AM   #26

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...what?



No, they were pardoned after they offered the pope an immense sum of money that they looted from Constantinople.

It had nothing to do with the patriarchate.
Your pope and his crusaders each got their own form of booty.
Your timetable is correct, at least. I did not aver a quid pro quo, but one occured nonetheless. Deal with it. The single greatest reason Constantinople and the Empire fell when it did and perhaps at all is the west's raping and looting of the capital.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 07:13 AM   #27

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Your pope and his crusaders each got their own form of booty.
Yes.

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Your timetable is correct, at least. I did not aver a quid pro quo, but one occured nonetheless. Deal with it.
What does that even mean lol?
What are you talking about?

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The single greatest reason Constantinople and the Empire fell when it did and perhaps at all is the west's raping and looting of the capital.
You do realize that the West did it's best to protect Constantinople in the latter years and that the defense of the siege of 1453 was led by western knights volunteers led by Giovanni Giustiniani, who was given command of the defense by the Emperor himself?

The greatest reason the Empire fell was the Empire itself.

Read upon the corruption and complete incompetence of the pretenders who overthrew Emperor Issac and then you will realize that the Byzantine Empire would be better off with a crusader puppet than Alexious V and his former corrupt cronies.

Also, if not for the first crusade, the Empire would collapse in on itself anyways, or do you forget the amount of land the Empire recovered because of the crusaders?
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Old November 21st, 2015, 07:22 AM   #28
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[quote=NeutralFellow;2369966]
Quote:
You do realize that the West did it's best to protect Constantinople in the latter years and that the defense of the siege of 1453 was led by western knights volunteers led by Giovanni Giustiniani, who was given command of the defense by the Emperor himself?
I doubt that it was best of west even though by my knowledge pope tried to organise help as much as he could.


Quote:
The greatest reason the Empire fell was the Empire itself.
True.

its cool to hate on crusades as pure evil entrprises now as its popular from position of moral superiority completely oblivious to political realities of times.I find this strangely frequent among my orhodox brethren.
But greeks asked for crusades and west help before sack and were asking for them after sack.They knew much better than us today why they were needed.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 08:33 AM   #29

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Azatoth,
Without doubt the "Byzantines" asked for help from the west but I sincerely doubt that request was for those expeditions to defeat the Muslims and then establish Latin fiefdoms in the Holy Lands, mush to the degradation of the Orthodox Catholic christians.
What they got from the "assistance" was definitely different from that which they asked.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 08:35 AM   #30

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The Massacro dei Latini was a bad idea.
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