Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 5th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #71

beorna's Avatar
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
 
Joined: Jan 2010
From: Lower Saxony
Posts: 12,250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athelstan View Post
That’s the bit I have trouble with. Are we suggesting the Angles, Saxons and Jutes all arrived in Britain speaking the same language?

Because if not in the space of two hundred years, separated as the groups were by distance and terrain, we are asked to believe their language just merged to form a kind of proto- English. This then split up to produce the four dialects of Northumbrian, Mercian, Kentish and West Saxon.

Of course if we remove the Saxons from the equation and just start with the Angles it seems perfectly possible.
We can suppose that they all spoke the same or at least very similar languages, because they came from mainly North Sea Germanic areas. But even Istvaeonic and Irminonic were not really different.

BTW, I suppose you all have heard, that the name "Deutsch" for german derived from theodisc. Did you know that the first time a lingua theodisce was mentioned, was by the bishop of Amiens, Georg de Ostia in 786, when he wrote to pope Hadrian I, that on an anglo-saxon synod the decrees were read out in "tam latine quam theodisce"?
beorna is offline  
Remove Ads
Old July 5th, 2013, 06:56 AM   #72
Scholar
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 684

Quote:
Originally Posted by ib-issi View Post
Hastings is one of only a very few places named in the British Isles on this old map

Idrisi?s ?Tabula Rogeriana? World Map (1154)



you need to enlarge it quite a bit , and pan around a fair bit even to find Britain....... you can find Dobrs , Londr and Hastinks.......... London , Dover and Hastings.........any guesses what the other named places are ??????
Great map! I'm lost on most of the places, but I suspect Durbalmo could be Durham and Efardik must be York (the old English name for the city was 'Eoforwic'). Could Agrims be Grimsby? On the rest I'm stumped.

Edit: a couple more guesses - I'm thinking that Garksfort must mean Hertford, whilst Sorham could be Southampton. From location Gartmuda could be Dartford, but that doesn't really fit with the idea that the accented 'g' is supposed to indicate a /h/ sound.

Edit2: Casting my eye over the Channel to France, I see that the mapmaker listed two alternative spellings for Dol-de-Bretagne, one with a 'd' and on with the accented 'g'. This makes me more confident that Gartmuda must be Dartford.

Last edited by Kaficek; July 5th, 2013 at 07:08 AM.
Kaficek is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 08:00 AM   #73

ib-issi's Avatar
>>Its Just Passing Time<<
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: just sitting here
Posts: 3,005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaficek View Post
Great map! I'm lost on most of the places, but I suspect Durbalmo could be Durham and Efardik must be York (the old English name for the city was 'Eoforwic'). Could Agrims be Grimsby? On the rest I'm stumped.

Edit: a couple more guesses - I'm thinking that Garksfort must mean Hertford, whilst Sorham could be Southampton. From location Gartmuda could be Dartford, but that doesn't really fit with the idea that the accented 'g' is supposed to indicate a /h/ sound.

Edit2: Casting my eye over the Channel to France, I see that the mapmaker listed two alternative spellings for Dol-de-Bretagne, one with a 'd' and on with the accented 'g'. This makes me more confident that Gartmuda must be Dartford.
Rather than ruin this thread , i am going to post the map in a new thread , we have plenty of members from other countries , it will be fun to see how many places we can all identify as a forum me-thinks .
ib-issi is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 02:12 PM   #74

Sumrbrez's Avatar
Archivist
 
Joined: Feb 2012
From: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 239
Origin of the Goths


Quote:
Originally Posted by pikeshot1600 View Post
Gustav Adolf also styled himself Rex Gothorum as a political statement. It seems it was meant to resonate with (educated) anti-Catholics, as Goths were Arian Christians, and they were more or less opponents of the "Empire."

The origin of the Goths is still an archaeological matter, not historical, and it is not likely that they were Scandinavian. AFAIK the Jutes and Angles did not claim descent from Goths. Otherwise we could have had the Kingdom of Great Gothia.
You are wrong about the origins of the Goths. According to Peter Heather in (Empires and Barbarians,2012), the Goths did indeed come from Scandinavia. There is enough credible oral evidence passed down through the centuries to validate Jordain's story that the Goths came in 3 ships from Scandinavia. Their origin was probably the Upland area just north of Stockholm. There is evidence that the Rus came from this area 700 years later. And they are physically almost identical to the Goths. There is no other place they could have come from. Heather knocks down all of Kulikowski's theories of the Goths origins. Saying that he misinterpreted archeological evidence and other historical facts. So all of Kulikowski's theories are outdated.
Peter Heather is the worlds foremost expert on the Goths. He has written 3 books on them.
Sumrbrez is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 04:42 PM   #75

Garry_Owen's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
From: Thomond, Ireland.
Posts: 674

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarossa View Post
The fact that one can count on his fingers the amount of Celtic words in English which survived to this day, means that there was a very strong cultural identity in the Germanic language brought to shores, which did not need any loanwords from the Celtic tongues.
The most recent research tends to indicate the opposite. There are more 'celtic' words in English than has hitherto been recognised, and the 'celtic' influence on English generally has been greater than previously accepted. The same is true of placenames in England.
Garry_Owen is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #76
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2013
From: australia
Posts: 1,517

It's a fact that Brahma came from Birmingham to Bharata India of the Britons..
What nationality was London after Egbert and sons? It was Mercian from 730 to 911 and evidently had Anglian populace. With the transfer from Winchester to London the Anglisc language probably became the King's standard.
chimera is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #77

Barbarossa's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
From: Iudaea
Posts: 548

Quote:
Originally Posted by chimera View Post
It's a fact that Brahma came from Birmingham to Bharata India of the Britons..

Is it?
Barbarossa is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 10:06 PM   #78

Barbarossa's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
From: Iudaea
Posts: 548

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumrbrez View Post
You are wrong about the origins of the Goths. According to Peter Heather in (Empires and Barbarians,2012), the Goths did indeed come from Scandinavia. There is enough credible oral evidence passed down through the centuries to validate Jordain's story that the Goths came in 3 ships from Scandinavia. Their origin was probably the Upland area just north of Stockholm. There is evidence that the Rus came from this area 700 years later. And they are physically almost identical to the Goths. There is no other place they could have come from. Heather knocks down all of Kulikowski's theories of the Goths origins. Saying that he misinterpreted archeological evidence and other historical facts. So all of Kulikowski's theories are outdated.
Peter Heather is the worlds foremost expert on the Goths. He has written 3 books on them.
But Gotland is in the south of Sweden.
Anyway, in the 1st centuey CE they settled in what is now Poland where they picked up an East Germanic dialect, later in the 2nd century CE they settled in what is now northern Romania and western Ukraine and in the 3rd century along the Danube.

Sorry that it's not very relevant to the thread.
Barbarossa is offline  
Old July 5th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #79
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2013
From: australia
Posts: 1,517

It's Swedenglish.
"Modern Swedish offers a better guide than Modern English to the verbal and oral tone, cast of mind, and lexical meanings expressed in Anglo-Saxon poetry, and specifically of course, in The Seafarer.
. The most obvious single witness to this sustained memory of their origins by the Anglo-Saxon settlers, is of course Beowulf. This "Old English" epic contains nothing at all about a people recognisable as the "English". Björn Collinder, a distinguished scholar and gifted poet, translated the poem into Swedish in 1954, and remarks in his introduction, of the historically corroborated events it relates, that: "Thanks to these admittedly scanty pieces of information the Lay of Beowulf ought to be a precious relic for us Swedes." Sam Newton's study, The Origins of Beowulf, makes instructive reading on the poem's links with pre-literary Sweden.
Beowulf is much concerned with the deeds of the Danes and the Geats. If we disregard the fascinating and seemingly endless scholarly wrangling over the exact identity of the Geats, it is reasonable to assume that they were a people who occupied the territory now called Swedish Götaland, an area encompassing the southern third of modern Sweden, and including the provinces of modern Skåne, East and West Götaland, among others. What might be regarded as the core of this tribal or cultic sphere, in the first centuries AD, would have been located along the west coast of modern Sweden, facing Britain across the North Sea, and extending inland to include the vast Lake Vänern. Depending on the niceties of distinction one cares to draw between the Geats and similarly named peoples, the territory could be enlarged to take in the Baltic island of modern Gotland, and the modern Danish peninsula of Jutland, also sparsely referred to in Anglo-Saxon sources as (another) Gotland. It has to be indisputable that from these areas, and the rest of modern Denmark, came the bulk of the immigrants called Angles and Jutes, who settled what is now northern and central England, following the somewhat earlier influx of the Saxons, who settled the counties now known as Sussex, Essex, Middlesex, and the area still occasionally called Wessex. The question of why they all spoke of their language as englisc, named after the Angles, rather than after the Saxons or Jutes, can be left for discussion elsewhere. It is for these reasons, coupled with the years spent attempting to penetrate the "signification" of The Seafarer, and the early accident of my acquisition of Swedish as a second mother tongue, that I have come to the possibly naïve conviction that Modern Swedish is the living language which most closely resembles the englisc of the Anglo-Saxons --- far more so than Modern English. At the same time I doubt whether I would have held this conviction quite so strongly had I not imbibed English, up to the age of eight, as my first mother tongue. I now also realise that it was a further curious and distinct additional benefit that the last five of my first eight years were spent in Scotland. A final advantage was to have learned both German and French before the age of 15, still within the period, as Peter Høeg and Stephen Pinker have both noted, when a language can be absorbed by "instinct" rather than by tortuous grammar-based book-study. How precisely does Modern Swedish resemble Anglo-Saxon? A complete answer would fill a book, but a simple illustration of one of the many ways is instanced by the tag attached to the unlucky king known to the Anglo-Saxons as Æðelræd unræd, who has gone down in British history as "Ethelred the Unready". It used to be explained to English students that unræd does not mean "unready", although no Modern English word is (readily) available to convey what unræd actually does mean. Words and phrases such as "resourceless, at a loss, irresolute, ill-advised, perplexed", and occasionally "redeless" are variously proposed. In An Introduction to Anglo-Saxon England, Peter Hunter Blair suggested that: Æðelræd Unræd ... could be literally rendered "Noble-Counsel No-Counsel". This is a stout try, but really only serves to emphasise how remote the Anglo-Saxon idiom is from anything current in Modern English. However, unræd easily and accurately translates into Modern Swedish as rådlös, or, perhaps, as orådig. In order to bring out the mocking word-play in the epithet, which implicitly alludes to the king's given name, Æðelræd unræd would ideally convert into Ädelråd oråde, where the tag would be exactly analogous to that of Ingjald illråde, legendary king of ill-fame in 7th century central Sweden. In his entertaining History of the Vikings, Gwyn Jones is obliged to render Ingjald illråde, a little lamely, as "Ingjald the Wicked", but this is not to say that anyone else could offer a better and equally succinct translation. In the following examples from The Seafarer, the line numbers in brackets refer to Ida Gordon's 1960 edition. What I conceive of as the Modern Swedish cognate follows, together with whatever comment then seems appropriate. Mæg ic (1) - Må jag. Perhaps best translated in this context as "Let me (tell you)", or, even more strongly, "I mean to tell you", rather than "May I". The significance of the slippery auxiliary mæg in the Anglo-Saxon poem Deor was aggressively raised by an American translator, Burton Raffel. He refers to the poem's refrain: þæs oferode; þisses swa mæg; and cites several modern renderings: "That passed away; so will ('shall' or 'can') this" [M.W.Bloomfield]; "That (the misfortune just alluded to) has passed over; so may this (whatever is troubling any of us now)" [J.C.Pope]; "That (affliction) passed over, so can this (of mine)" [A.J.Wyatt]; "Time has passed on from that: so it will from this/That was overcome (or got over); so may be this" [C.L.Wrenn]. Raffel bluntly castigates Bloomfield for asserting that "The 'may' translation of mæg ... (has) no linguistic support", and then goes on to give his own interpretation: "That passed, and so may this". In my view, however, this knotty refrain converts only slightly awkwardly into Modern Swedish, as dessa gick över, må detta likaså. The words and mæg, to my mind, convey a virtually identical sense of the imperative "let (this happen)". This sense can, of course, also be expressed by Modern English "may", eg in phrases such as "may he rot in hell", "may you bloom and grow", but, in general, the word "may" implies a rather strong element of doubt. Perhaps Anglo-Saxon mæg retains a slight connotation of meaht, sustaining an implication of physical might and power, which has lost impetus in Modern English, where "may I" (and, ambiguously, "might I") often prefaces a polite request, which could possibly receive the answer "no". In Swedish, is not used to imply deference or suggest doubt in this manner. It very rarely, if ever, entertains the possibility of a refusal. (back to notes: stanza 1) slat (11) - slet. The Modern Swedish verb slita means both "tear" and "wear", and also carries implications of "struggle" or "toil". All of these senses seem to me present in the Anglo-Saxon, and cannot be rendered half so economically into Modern English. (notes: 3) scurum (17) - skur. The full Anglo-Saxon line reads hægl scurum fleag, which could go straight into Swedish as hagelskur flög, visibly closer to the original than the same words in Modern English. Swedish skur(a) might translate as "shower" or "scour" or even "scrub"; but there is some dissent about the origins of these words. Some hold that since scur arrived with the Anglo-Saxons, who pronounced sc- as "sh-", it can only mean "shower"; and "scour" would therefore have arrived with the Vikings. Others derive "scour" ("to clean") from Latin excurare, and say it reached English via Old French escurer. It would seem a little unlikely, however, that Swedish skura, "scrub", reached Sweden by the same route. (A similar theory is expressed for the Scottish word "stravaig" - to "wander or roam aimlessly", which some derive "via the obsolete Scots 'extravage' from the Latin vagari - to wander". What, then, are we to make of Swedish ströva, or German streifen?). The suffix -um puts scur into the dative, and a meticulous translator, like Shigetake Suzuki, will render the sentence "the hail flew in showers". Ezra Pound chose the singular compound "hail-scur", for which the OED provides scant authority. (notes: 5) gomene (20) - gamman. During my talk at Hull one of my tolerant listeners, Harry Watson, supplied me with the quotation "off gamyn and glé", dated to 1420, from Andrew of Wyntoun's Orygynale Cronykil of Scotland; the last recorded instance of "gamyn" in British literature. Gamman is a current if not common Swedish word. The line: "Var man som lyfter sina lår/Till gamman i hans sal", occurs in a poem by Erik Axel Karlfeldt, 1864-1931, entitled I Lissabon. The poem evokes the romantic delights to be experienced at the king's red palace in Lisbon. Set to a tuneful melody, it was a popular hit in the Sweden of the late 1940s, and made an impression on my ten-year-old sensibilities. Perhaps Modern English "gaming" still suggests a touch of the general wassail conveyed by gomene. (notes: 6) medodrince (22) - mjöddricka. English "mead-drink", though impossibly clumsy in direct translation, seems verbally closer to the original than the Swedish. Perhaps because of its oddly alien sound to an English ear, the compound has tended to be thought of as the action rather than the actual potion. Ida Gordon notes: "usually translated 'drinking of mead', (it) probably means, as O.S.Anderson suggests, the drink itself". Professor Anderson (later Arngart) of Lund University has been pre-eminent among Seafarer scholars during the last 150 years for having produced by far the most rational and straightforward interpretation of the poem. Could this have something to do with the likelihood that his native language and life's work centred close to the heart of the original homeland of the Angles? It was an uncanny source of pleasure for me to realise that he had published his study of The Seafarer in Lund in 1937, the year of my own birth in the same town. (My knowledge of Swedish was limited at that stage, as I departed for other shores at the age of one.) It was also a privilege for me, although I never met him, to correspond with him and exchange a few words with him on the telephone before his recent death at a great age; as he was clearly, and unlike many, a genuine old-fashioned scholar of industry, simplicity and intellectual integrity. (notes: stanza 6) hrusan (32) - grus. "Gravel", or "loose soil", is probably the most accurate rendering of hrusan. The Anglo-Saxon line reads hrim hrusan bond, ie "frost bound the loose soil", or fixed it in place. (notes: 9) forþon (27, 33, 39, 58, 64, 72, 103, 108) - ändå (first 6 instances); (last 2 instances). Intense and bewildered debate has raged for many years around the significance of this fairly obvious connective. Swedish ändå means "yet" or "and yet". means "then", in both its temporal and causative senses. In the causative sense its English rendering will shift towards "therefore" or "because". The sense-emphasis in Anglo-Saxon forþon, to my mind, should be on this second component þon, which occurs in Chaucer as "tho", meaning "then". I recall the enraged disappointment of my English tutor, in 1960, when, seeking to confound me, he slily asked me the meaning of "tho" in a line of Chaucer, fully expecting my answer "though". Recognizing Swedish , I was able promptly to come up with "then". "How did you know that?" he blurted out; "I suppose it was written in!" It hardly seemed worth explaining. I showed him my unmarked page, and hope he has remained puzzled to this day. Swedish is used in other particular combinations besides ändå such as ty då and för då, meaning again, roughly, "for then", "therefore" or "because". These little words are very tricky. Even the masterful Humpty Dumpty, who subdued the adjective, might have had difficulty in nailing the particle. Although the sense of forþon in The Seafarer very strongly correlates with "and yet", it is not really practicable in a modern poetic interpretation to use "and yet" without variation, since its significance shifts slightly in each of the several places it occurs, and I settled for various paraphrases, with, as I see it, local aptness and implication. (notes: 10/11) sorge (42, 54) - (om)sorg. Anglo-Saxon sorg would seem to be identical with Modern Swedish sorg, and both words seem to be only very slightly different from Modern English "sorrow". But it is clear that sorge in line 42 is not the same as sorge in line 54: Gordon glosses the latter as "sorrow", but the former as "anxiety". The dominant sense in line 42 is less "anxiety", however, than "concern", or "thoughtfulness". This sense is supplied by German Sorge für eine Sache tragen, and present in Swedish omsorgsfull or sörja för, but quite vanished from demotic English "sorrow". The underlying significance for the poet, and his audience, of Seafarer line 42: þæt he a his sæfore sorge næbbe, is that the seafarer's concern should be to make thorough preparation before embarking on his voyage. This may imply "anxiety", but in an entailed, or secondary and ambiguous sense. The closest sense of sorge in line 54 is probably "care(s)/worries". (notes: 12) hyge (44, 58, 96) - håg, earlier hug. The Swedish word occurs in many contexts: komma ihåg, glad i hågen, hågad, farhåga, räddhåga, håga, hugstor, hugnad, älskog (älsk hug/håg); and also in the name of Odin's feathered friend, Hugin. Anglo-Saxon hyge is usually translated "thought", perhaps influenced by the presence of "-houg-". But the sense of inactive contemplation and rumination implied by Modern English "thought", as well as the contrary senses implied by the alternative, and even more misleading "spirit" (pace Swedish hugstor "spirited", "great-minded"), proposed in Ida Gordon's glossary, both appear to be insufficient translations of hyge. Swedish håg often seems to connote a sense of motion, inclination, intent, longing or desire, eg as in hågad, to be "minded" (to do something); and hug introduces further complexity. The word could be related to English "hug", which John Ayto links with "Old Norse hugga 'comfort, console', ... descended from a prehistoric Germanic hugjan, which also produced Anglo-Saxon hogian 'think, consider, be solicitous'". Perhaps hugjan likewise generated Modern Swedish hugga, "grab/hack/hew", again connoting action. In any case, as evidenced by its context in The Seafarer, the Anglo-Saxon word carries a strong connotation of mental longing, motion and (spiritual) elevation, still present in håg, whereas Modern English "thought" has lost this essential implication. The unexpected fact is that "desire" is a pretty useful translation of hyge. (notes: 13) wongas (49) - vång. Wongas, in The Seafarer, is often rendered by Anglo-American translators as "the plains", which is quite wrong. Vång is not current in Swedish Svealand, the area of middle Sweden, north of Götaland, but it was a word in daily use on my grandfather's farm in the south, on the west coast of Skåne, facing Copenhagen. Vangur occurs in Icelandic: "sphere, ring, field"; vang in Norwegian: "(enclosed) field, meadow"; and Danish vang is defined as "dyrket jordstykke; mark eller eng; navnlig om et til græsning tjenende jordstykke, græsmark," etc. Anglo-Saxon wang or wong is in fact very specifically a meadow, a place as circumscribed, soft and downy as a maiden's cheek; cf Ger Wange "cheek". With odd and fortuitous aptness, since this paper was presented in the village of Cottingham, close to the ancient city of Hull, there is a place called "Wetwang", an archaeological site, twenty miles north of the village. "Wetwang" further suggests that wong can be, even more precisely, a water-meadow ("a meadow fertilized by being flooded at certain seasons from an adjoining stream"). Swedish Professor Eilert Ekwall's authoritative Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names notes that the "Wang-" in one or two other English place-names, eg Wangford, earlier Wainford, will derive from Anglo-Saxon wægnford, "wagon-ford". In Wetwang, however, the linked descent from Swedish vång and Anglo-Saxon wong is undoubted. Interestingly, moreover, in the Danish Ordbog, the word is said to be cognate with Gothic waggs, connoting "Paradise"; an ancestry which invites thoughts of the paradisial "soft meadow" of ancient Mesopotamian poetry, as well as the marshes and bogs of Denmark with their gruesome relicts of human punishment or sacrifice. (notes: 14) sceatas (61, 105) - sköte (skatt). The concepts latent in sceatas are multiple and dauntingly convoluted. An introduction to the full complexity of this word and its associated ideas is provided by the two columns under "shoot" in Eric Partridge's Origins. The basic prehistoric sense appears to be "to shoot forth". (In the context of The Seafarer I am reminded of Vaughan's: "But felt through all this fleshly dress/Bright shoots of everlastingness"). Gordon's glossary to The Seafarer associates sceat with Modern English "sheet", hence, she seems to be suggesting, "expanse". "Sheet" would hardly have occurred to a Swedish reader, however, and it seems more promising to try, in Professor Arngart's words: "to penetrate to what lies beneath the verbal surface", by approaching the contextual meaning of sceatas via Swedish sköte, which at its simplest means "lap", that frontal part of the (seated) human body between the waist and the knees. Våra Ord rather coyly gives knä, "knee", for sköte; and continues: fsv. skote; bildn. till fsv. skot, flik (av en rock), hörn, etc. (Flik could be translated "turnback" or "lapel" --- aptly cognate with "lap"). For Old Swedish skot(e), Våra Ord gives tåg eller kätting, fäst i hörn av segel; ie a "sheet", in its rarer, specialised meaning of a rope attached to the corner of a sail on a yacht or other sailing-ship. Skot never implies "expanse", but always connects in some manner with "corner", "fold", "turnback", "dogear", "flap" and the like. Modern Swedish sköte means "lap" or "womb"; figuratively "bosom"; less immediately "pudenda" or similar. The key to the submerged significance of Anglo-Saxon sceatas lies in this meaning of "fold" or "corner". For sceat, Bessinger's Short Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon Poetry has: "corner, fold, place of concealment; lap, bosom (of the body); region, surface (of the earth)", but the last two meanings, I would contend, are quite simply incorrect, and derive from a misconstrued association of sceat with a flat sheet. In the Seafarer context sceat also seems to be linked with another Anglo-Saxon word which appears in Sweet and Clark Hall as sceat(t), equating with Swedish skatt, meaning "treasure", or riches. Eorþan sceatas in The Seafarer, since its author made his words work doubly hard, would therefore imply the "treasures/riches", "cornucopia", and collective "lap" of Nature, rather than the "surfaces of the earth" so often favoured in the poem's many interpretations. The particular "corner" indicated finds an echo in Othello's green-eyed: "I had rather be a toad ... Than keep a corner in the thing I love/For others' uses". For preference, the nearest modern language equivalent of Anglo-Saxon sceat appears to be Swedish sköte. ("Haga, i ditt sköte röjes/Gräsets brodd och gula plan", sings the almost untranslatable Bellman). Hence my choice, in line 61, of "creation", which encompasses the imagined corners of the round earth, as well as its fecundity. In line 105, the choice of "vaults" attempts to unite the treasures of the earth, its stored and hidden riches, the womb and mysterious origin of life itself, with what Andrew Marvell, in Bermudas, extols as "Heaven's Vault", the starry constellations of the universe. (notes: 17). ." I would like to think that this elusive Sprachgefühl for Anglo-Saxon poetry might be developed, with no great difficulty, by any literate native speaker of Swedish, or any other Scandinavian language. In view of the historically misplaced deference of some Scandinavian scholars and translators to the interpretations of "Old English" produced by their Anglo-American counterparts, this native speaker would also have to have a confident, instinctive and sure command of Modern English. My overall conclusion is that while there are current cognates, in both Modern Swedish and Modern English, for a very large number (almost all) Anglo-Saxon words, the Modern Swedish cognate is, I am prepared to hazard, invariably closer to the Anglo-Saxon meaning than its Modern English counterpart. This relationship extends well beyond the mere sense of individual words, and includes whole phrases, idioms, basic social and cultural values, intellectual, philosophical and eschatological outlook and orientation. It may be, of course, that this is particularly true of The Seafarer, and less so for other Anglo-Saxon works: life is too short for me to verify the matter for the rest of the corpus.
*** *** ***

, David Burns, refers to "a poem in a West Saxon dialect, known to us as Beowulf. Yet the central figure in this most famous piece of Anglo-Saxon epic poetry belongs not to Jutland, Schleswig or Holstein, as might be expected, but to Sweden: Beowulf was of the Geats, generally considered to be the Götar from Götaland in southern Sweden, and the poem is largely to do with the relationships between the Geats, the Scylfings (Svear, Swedes or Ynglingas) to the north-east, and the Scyldings of Denmark. This, then, is the background to one of the most important sources of Anglo-Saxon culture we have. Add the archaeological evidence of links between Sweden and Britain from Uppland and Sutton Hoo, and the Swedish connection is reinforced. Yet historians appear to dismiss, or not wish to pursue, the Swedish connection." Mr Burns concludes his essay with an "Epilogue", remarking of Beowulf that "the language of the poem itself, even at the late stage of writing, contains words still more recognizable in modern Swedish, than in modern English". - C H Wallace

Last edited by chimera; July 5th, 2013 at 11:23 PM.
chimera is offline  
Old July 6th, 2013, 01:34 AM   #80
Archivist
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Hampshire
Posts: 227

Quote:
Originally Posted by beorna View Post
We can suppose that they all spoke the same or at least very similar languages, because they came from mainly North Sea Germanic areas. But even Istvaeonic and Irminonic were not really different.
Can we suppose that? I’d welcome any proof of that as it would surely dent my No Saxon theory.


But then we have the strange, to my eyes, case of the Kingdom of Kent. It’s nearest to the Continent and one you would expect to be the most heavily influenced by any supposed Saxon invasion yet it retains its Romano-British name. Bede describes its ruler as rex Ethelbertus in Cantia or King Ethelbert of Kent. Cantia is a kingdom not a people. This would suggest, to me, a degree continuity with the local Romano-British and not a simple mass invasion. It’s in Kent Bede says the Jutes landed yet the archaeological evidence points to a strong, but not overwhelming, Frankish influence. A strange mixture indeed yet it is in Kent that we have the first recorded use, albeit a copy, of the English Language in the shape of the Law of King Ethelbert in the 7th Century.

When Bede refers to a West Saxon King he calls him rege Occidentalium Saxonum or King of the West Saxons. Kent is a Kingdom whereas the West Saxons are a group of people. Maybe he uses a group method because Bede is unsure of what to call them, filling in the blanks as it were.
Athelstan is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Medieval and Byzantine History

Tags
england, saxonia


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Stalin" "Black myth" of the security officers: NKVD troops in World War II kekau92 European History 0 June 11th, 2013 12:40 PM
"2000 Maniacs" - Worst excuse for a "CW" based movie! Bonny Blue Flag History in Films and on Television 18 November 27th, 2012 08:04 AM
The Ship "Thomas"; chapter 7 of Liverpool and Slavery by "a Genuine 'Dicky Sam'" Tony Franks-Buckley European History 4 July 16th, 2012 11:19 AM
What Justifies the Label "Barbarian" and When Can the Claim for "Civilization" Be Asserted? Serena General History 48 June 28th, 2011 04:35 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.