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Old June 7th, 2009, 06:41 AM   #1

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Manuel II, unanswered(?)


Remember the flap from way back in 2006 when the then-new guy on the gilded block brought up the quote by Byzantine emperor Manuel II, giving an audience in 1391 to a Persian Muslim intellectual?

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"

I'd like to know what the Persian's response was.

I already know how the Q'uran [2:256] states "there is no compulsion in religion" (and, of course, how this verse was, in practice, the recipient of The Big Blind Eye out of convenience). After reading up on this very issue, it's also clear that many Muslims are offended by how the Pope failed to include the Persian's response, yet none of them can append anything to the dialogue following Manuel II's statement.

Curious to see if anyone can add anything.

Thanks in advance.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 07:54 AM   #2

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Re: Manuel II, unanswered(?)


I am afraid, that you will have to get the book of the original 26 dialogues to find out ....... so far they have NOT been translated into english.
If you speak greek , this might be an option :
Erich Trapp : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Perser (text in greek only, with a german introduction )
If you speak german , this might be an option :
Karl Forstel (Foerstel/Førstel) : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Muslim (3 volumes ) text in both greek and german as well .......

Both are rare books , not even to be found for sale on bookfinder.com at present - try your national library - I just checked the website of the local national library here, and they have both books ......

The quote mentioned by you, is from dialogue 7..........

Good luck ........

Last edited by Merlin; June 7th, 2009 at 08:13 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 03:53 AM   #3

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Re: Manuel II, unanswered(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
I am afraid, that you will have to get the book of the original 26 dialogues to find out ....... so far they have NOT been translated into english.
If you speak greek , this might be an option :
Erich Trapp : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Perser (text in greek only, with a german introduction )
If you speak german , this might be an option :
Karl Forstel (Foerstel/Førstel) : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Muslim (3 volumes ) text in both greek and german as well .......

Both are rare books , not even to be found for sale on bookfinder.com at present - try your national library - I just checked the website of the local national library here, and they have both books ......

The quote mentioned by you, is from dialogue 7..........

Good luck ........
Thank you & glad you've come to this forum. It's pretty clear from that response alone that you'll live up to your name.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 08:31 AM   #4

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Re: Manuel II, unanswered(?)


Thank you , for your kind words .... I am however not a wizard ......
But I sensed it was important for you , so I did some research for half an hour ......
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Old June 8th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #5

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Re: Manuel II, unanswered(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
Thank you , for your kind words .... I am however not a wizard ......
But I sensed it was important for you , so I did some research for half an hour ......
It may well be a year or more before I can get around to the Library of Congress or any other national library, but when I do, you'll be the first I contact to follow up an answer with.

Thank you again.
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Old July 29th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #6

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Re: Manuel II, unanswered(?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
I am afraid, that you will have to get the book of the original 26 dialogues to find out ....... so far they have NOT been translated into english.
If you speak greek , this might be an option :
Erich Trapp : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Perser (text in greek only, with a german introduction )
If you speak german , this might be an option :
Karl Forstel (Foerstel/Førstel) : Manuel II, Palaiologos: Dialoge mit einem Muslim (3 volumes ) text in both greek and german as well .......

Both are rare books , not even to be found for sale on bookfinder.com at present - try your national library - I just checked the website of the local national library here, and they have both books ......

The quote mentioned by you, is from dialogue 7..........

Good luck ........
So over a year on now, but on my trip home I made it to the Library of Congress & copied the passage you named, then asked a Swiss friend here to scan the passage from the Pope's Regensburg quote/flap.

The quote, "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find etc..." was actually part of what appears to be a rant that Manuel was firing off. It continues for a full page and a half, and then the poor Persian (named Muterizes, btw) is given minimal airtime... his response is quoted indirectly, it's a less-than-4-line summary of how he responded to the rant in general, saying that Islam is a balance between the primitiveness of Moses' law & the over-magnanimity of Christ's message. His response does not directly address this specific challenge of Manuel.

Obviously, it was Manuel's show and spotlight, so no real surprises in this.. but big thanks to you, Merlin, for your help in research.
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Old October 9th, 2011, 09:10 PM   #7
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hi


the book of Karl Fõrstel, Manuel II Palailogus. Dialoge mit einem Muslim
can u help me to find it
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Old October 25th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #8
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Not sure about the Persian's reply, but ol' Manuel was quite fond of the sword himself, he incited quite a few crusades against the Muslims if I remember correctly. Bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
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