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Old February 10th, 2014, 04:07 AM   #21

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Would that be Edward I, The Hammer of the Scots, then Gushel?
He also massacred all the people in a town near me and that's in England ...so perhaps he is also the ''Hammer of the English ''....there is of course a twist to this
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Old February 10th, 2014, 10:33 AM   #22

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He also massacred all the people in a town near me and that's in England ...so perhaps he is also the ''Hammer of the English ''....there is of course a twist to this
If, St Oswald, you are referring to the sack of Berwick, Edward I did no more than any other medieval king would have done to a town that was in defiance to its liege lord.
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Old February 10th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #23

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Was Berwick even English at the time?
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Old February 11th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #24

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The Scottish king had attacked England, ravaging part of the north, while Edward was at war with France, and Edward then responded in kind, capturing Berwick in the process. The town continued to pass back and forth between England and Scotland!
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Old February 11th, 2014, 03:36 AM   #25

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If, St Oswald, you are referring to the sack of Berwick, Edward I did no more than any other medieval king would have done to a town that was in defiance to its liege lord.
You are of course correct , my reference ''Hammer of the English'' was tongue in cheek.

Berwick is a local town near me and to this day still has split allegiance . Many prefer to have only allegiance to Berwick .

Its an interesting debate going back to OP if Edward as a native French (Angevine, Norman) speaker , with his peasants speaking middle English and with some Scandinavian still present , plus Brythonic Celt. It is debateable if he could be considered English anyway .

He may have been born here , but the Kingdom of England was just a part of his greater empire

Modern concepts never can match what was thought back then

I doubt if the ordinary people cared much
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Old February 11th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #26
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I know for a fact that William the Conqueror didnt. He tried to learn after taking power but wasnt real successful
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Old February 11th, 2014, 01:06 PM   #27

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This is a very interesting question.

In his book The Adventure of English Melvyn Bragg does an excellent job of showing the astonishing changes the language went through at this time.

Bear in mind of course that speaking English in the 12th century was very, VERY far away from speaking English today. Modern English takes such a huge proportion of its vocabulary from French, that it is completely unrecognisable compared to the old pre-1066 language. As I understand it over 80% of the Anglo Saxon vocabulary has been lost, meaning it isnt used anymore. The words that remain are often the common, base type words to do with the connecting parts of a sentence, and to do with farming, the land, etc. All the high status word for intellectual concepts are of French origin.

As I understand it, Henry V was the first to address the people in English, at least in written form. There is anecdotal evidence that some of the kings before that may have understood some English, but I think Henry V is the first where we have conclusive proof.

Starting in August 1417, Henry V promoted the use of the English language in government, and his reign marks the appearance of Chancery Standard English as well as the adoption of English as the language of record within Government. He was the first king to use English in his personal correspondence since the Norman conquest, which had occurred 350 years earlier.

Here's a sample text, in Old English, just to show the differences we are up against:

Cnut cyning gret his arcebiscopas and his leod-biscopas and urcyl eorl and ealle his eorlas and ealne his eodscype, twelfhynde and twyhynde, gehadode and lwede, on Englalande freondlice.

Cnut, king, greets his archbishops and his lede'(people's)'-bishops and Thorkell, earl, and all his earls and all his peopleship, greater (having a 1200 shilling weregild) and lesser (200 shilling weregild), hooded(ordained to priesthood) and lewd(lay), in England friendly.

And ic cye eow, t ic wylle beon hold hlaford and unswicende to godes gerihtum and to rihtre woroldlage.

And I kithe(make known/couth to) you, that I will be [a] hold(civilised) lord and unswiking(uncheating) to God's rights(laws) and to [the] rights(laws) worldly.

Ic nam me to gemynde a gewritu and a word, e se arcebiscop Lyfing me fram am papan brohte of Rome, t ic scolde ghwr godes lof upp arran and unriht alecgan and full fri wyrcean be re mihte, e me god syllan wolde.

I nam(took) me to mind the writs and the word that the Archbishop Lyfing me from the Pope brought of Rome, that I should ayewhere(everywhere) God's love(praise) uprear(promote), and unright(outlaw) lies, and full frith(peace) work(bring about) by the might that me God would(wished) [to] sell'(give).

Nu ne wandode ic na minum sceattum, a hwile e eow unfri on handa stod: nu ic mid godes fultume t totwmde mid minum scattum.

Now, ne went(withdrew/changed) I not my shot(financial contribution, cf. Norse cognate in scot-free) the while that you stood(endured) unfrith(turmoil) on-hand: now I, mid(with) God's support, that [unfrith] totwemed(separated/dispelled) mid(with) my shot(financial contribution).

a cydde man me, t us mara hearm to fundode, onne us wel licode: and a for ic me sylf mid am mannum e me mid foron into Denmearcon, e eow mst hearm of com: and t hbbe mid godes fultume forene forfangen, t eow nfre heonon for anon nan unfri to ne cym, a hwile e ge me rihtlice healda and min lif by.

[I]Tho(then) [a] man kithed(made known/couth to) me that us more harm had found(come upon) than us well liked(equalled): and tho(then) fore(travelled) I, meself, mid(with) those men that mid(with) me fore(travelled), into Denmark that [to] you most harm came of(from): and that[harm] have , mid(with) God's support, afore(previously) forefangen(forestalled) that to you never henceforth thence none unfrith(breach of peace) ne come the while that ye me rightly hold(behold as king) and my life beeth.
This is a good post and one that I can help with. You are correct about Henry V and the use of the vernacular. In fact, Henry began using English at court over the preferred French. I can't remember where I read that but when I find my source I will let you know.

Anyway, from my research, it seems as if Henry becomes a promoter of the English language. What I find interesting, and there may be no connection whatsoever, but when Henry was a boy he was in and around the court of Richard II. Richard's court was full of well-known writers, including Geoffrey Chaucer. It may also simply be a coincidence that other writers at court were known to follow Lollard ideology which was also known to have promoted the use of English.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 09:06 AM   #28

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Originally Posted by ArthursArmory View Post
I know for a fact that William the Conqueror didnt. He tried to learn after taking power but wasnt real successful
Orderic says he tried to learn to read Old English, he might have been able to understand the spoken word, which wasn't the literary standard OE of the scribes at the time.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 02:21 PM   #29

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Do you mean pre-1066 or after William invaded? I know that because of the language barrier at his coronation, people got killed and the abbey burned down... However, I'm sure as time wore on, they learned English. Matilda likely spoke English, seeing as she was born in England.

Richard I spent more time in France than he did in England, so it makes sense for him to be a Francophone. In short, I think that they began to learn English after the Norman line died out, with the exception of Lionheart.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 02:27 PM   #30

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Originally Posted by St Oswald View Post
You are of course correct , my reference ''Hammer of the English'' was tongue in cheek.

Berwick is a local town near me and to this day still has split allegiance . Many prefer to have only allegiance to Berwick .

Its an interesting debate going back to OP if Edward as a native French (Angevine, Norman) speaker , with his peasants speaking middle English and with some Scandinavian still present , plus Brythonic Celt. It is debateable if he could be considered English anyway .

He may have been born here , but the Kingdom of England was just a part of his greater empire

Modern concepts never can match what was thought back then

I doubt if the ordinary people cared much
Yeah, but it was the biggest and most important part.
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