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Old January 11th, 2017, 09:52 AM   #131
1an
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Originally Posted by johnminnitt View Post
It is maybe possible I suppose that Little John could have been the son of a Huntly (though if Mr Long was so careless about the Earldon I see no reason to believe him), but you agree now that the statement that Little John was actually son of Earl Huntly' cannot be true?

In which case I await the apology for applying the word stupid to anyone doubting it.

Again try and understand, it is not Dodsworth's statement, it is his report of someone else's
I cannot comment on things I do not know, i.e. the Huntly family line. I do however have the utmost confidence in Mr. Long, Fabyan who was also a chronicler and historian, and Roger Dodsworth.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:02 AM   #132
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You do know the title was created in 1445, therefore you do know that Little John could not possibly have been the son of one of the subsequent Earls. Why not be honest enough at least to admit that clearly (even if you want to think there might still be some other link to Huntly), and apologise for calling anyone stupid for doubting the impossible story.

You insist on ignoring the fact that is clear to practically everybody else who has looked at this - Dodsworth reported but did not endorse this story. So whether you have confidence in him or not is irrelevant.
Why would you have confidence in the unknown Mr Long?

Last edited by johnminnitt; January 11th, 2017 at 10:07 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:08 AM   #133
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This is all getting a bit narrow, personal and intense.
In the end the thread is about whether there is a real RH behind the legend (ie some fact among the fiction), and it's got a bit stuck on one person's insistence that if there is one he must be from Loxley.

If anyone else is still there maybe you could help widen it out a bit?
I haven't delved into it much, but from a brief glance at the information, the theory that Roger Godberd was the original Robin Hood seems very convincing. Obviously, it would require the information about Edward to be slightly wrong (as Edward II's 1323 was the only visit before the first mention of the legends in which the 'King Edward' travelled from Lancaster to Nottingham, not the other way around, and stayed there for two weeks, as in the Geste), but this could easily be due to an error in the transmission of the tale. Roger Godberd was still pardoned during the reign of a King Edward, and what's great about this guy is that he started during the reign of Henry III, so he would explain why one early mention of Robin Hood places him in the reign of Henry III, yet the Geste calls the king at the time Edward.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 10:23 AM   #134
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I haven't delved into it much, but from a brief glance at the information, the theory that Roger Godberd was the original Robin Hood seems very convincing. Obviously, it would require the information about Edward to be slightly wrong (as Edward II's 1323 was the only visit before the first mention of the legends in which the 'King Edward' travelled from Lancaster to Nottingham, not the other way around, and stayed there for two weeks, as in the Geste), but this could easily be due to an error in the transmission of the tale. Roger Godberd was still pardoned during the reign of a King Edward, and what's great about this guy is that he started during the reign of Henry III, so he would explain why one early mention of Robin Hood places him in the reign of Henry III, yet the Geste calls the king at the time Edward.
I agree that Godberd is interesting. He is very likely the origin of the story about the knight sheltering the outlaws, the post-Montfort period is pretty close to the dates of two early chroniclers (Bower and Wyntoun), and we know there was at least one Robert Hod among the survivors of Montfort's men.
There is unfortunately no reason to think that Godberd was ever known as Robert Hood himself, but to think a single original must account for the whole thing seems a bit doubtful to me. Maybe the story could come from tales of a few of the 'disinherited' Montfortians, including Godberd and a Robert Hod?

Actually I think Godberd was pardoned by Henry III in 1266, but later pleaded that old pardon as still valid before Edward I.
http://www.robinhoodlegend.com/records-of-godberd/
I wouldn't worry too much about precise details of the Geste, after all that text is nearly 200 years after the period we're talking of, not many stories pass down that long without changes that are a good deal more than just errors in transmission.

Thanks for coming back, and lightening the atmosphere.

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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:10 PM   #135
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I agree that Godberd is interesting. He is very likely the origin of the story about the knight sheltering the outlaws,
Yes, that does seem pretty convincing from what I've read about it. And also, the fact that he had about 100 men in his service is very RH-esque and I expect that was pretty unusual.

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There is unfortunately no reason to think that Godberd was ever known as Robert Hood himself, but to think a single original must account for the whole thing seems a bit doubtful to me. Maybe the story could come from tales of a few of the 'disinherited' Montfortians, including Godberd and a Robert Hod?
Well if 'Robin Hood' was used as a nickname for outlaws by the time of Roger Godberd, then it would make sense that he was.

Actually, it could easily be the case that he wasn't known as Robin Hood in his own time. If the ballads aren't contemporary, then it could easily be the case that the later ballads referred to him as 'Robin Hood' because by that time it had become a nickname for outlaws.

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Actually I think Godberd was pardoned by Henry III in 1266, but later pleaded that old pardon as still valid before Edward I.
Well, it's pretty close anyway. Though, did his 'pardon' before Edward I take place during Edward's visit to Nottingham?

It's interesting that Roger Godberd explains so much of the account, but doesn't really fit with the last part of the Geste. I'm almost inclined to think that maybe the Geste is a combination of at least two men - Roger Godberd and, get this, the Robyn Hod of Edward II's court. If Roger did become known as Robin Hood, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that somewhere along the line he and another Robin Hood were mistaken for each other. So Roger is 'pardoned' by a King Edward, and then there's a Robin Hood in the service of a King Edward who was only there for a short time before leaving. That would explain the Robin Hood of the Geste.

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Thanks for coming back, and lightening the atmosphere.
Well it's a topic which interests me greatly, much like King Arthur, though unlike King Arthur I don't have any really firm convictions about this yet.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:55 PM   #136
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Well if 'Robin Hood' was used as a nickname for outlaws by the time of Roger Godberd, then it would make sense that he was.

Actually, it could easily be the case that he wasn't known as Robin Hood in his own time. If the ballads aren't contemporary, then it could easily be the case that the later ballads referred to him as 'Robin Hood' because by that time it had become a nickname for outlaws.
But why that name as an outlaws' nickname? I suspect (no stronger than that) that there was an original outlaw actually called Robert Hood, but that many of the stories we have (or most, or all) come from later outlaws who used the name, later outlaws who maybe didn't (like Godberd) and simply from the imaginations of story-tellers.


Quote:
Well, it's pretty close anyway. Though, did his 'pardon' before Edward I take place during Edward's visit to Nottingham?

It's interesting that Roger Godberd explains so much of the account, but doesn't really fit with the last part of the Geste. I'm almost inclined to think that maybe the Geste is a combination of at least two men - Roger Godberd and, get this, the Robyn Hod of Edward II's court. If Roger did become known as Robin Hood, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that somewhere along the line he and another Robin Hood were mistaken for each other. So Roger is 'pardoned' by a King Edward, and then there's a Robin Hood in the service of a King Edward who was only there for a short time before leaving. That would explain the Robin Hood of the Geste.
I would suspect (again) that the Robin Hood of the Geste, and the Robin Hood of all the other stories we have (why should the Geste be different?) comes from the whole mixture of sources I guessed at above.


Quote:
Well it's a topic which interests me greatly, much like King Arthur, though unlike King Arthur I don't have any really firm convictions about this yet.
When the evidence is so slender firm convictions are not really an option I reckon. Surmising's enjoyable anyway.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #137
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One of the most famous legends of the Medieval Era is that of the infamous and dashing outlaw, Robin Hood. Whilst many theories exist as to his identity etc, the answer is always elusive.

So, the question is, is it the opinion of the forum that 'Robin Hood' was ever a real flesh and blood person, or was he more of a folk legend created by tale-tellers, trouvieres and the like who literally 'sang for their supper' at castles etc?
Fascinating question!

Some people have stated that there are certain historical truths to the Robin Hood legend. Such as the man himself.

While other parts of the legend seem completely fictional. For example, Maid Marion came along much later in the story. I think it was in the 15th century, inspired by the French.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 09:56 PM   #138
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Fascinating question!

Some people have stated that there are certain historical truths to the Robin Hood legend. Such as the man himself.

While other parts of the legend seem completely fictional. For example, Maid Marion came along much later in the story. I think it was in the 15th century, inspired by the French.
It is true that Maid Marion, or any other female figure apart from the Virgin Mary, is not mentioned in the early ballads, however Robin frequently speaks of the Virgin Mary of whom he had the highest regard, and it has been suggested that Maid Marion (Mary) is a corruption of the Virgin Mary, invented by the later fiction writers.

There may be a perfectly good reason why women are not mentioned in the early ballads, see the bottom paragraph on this page
Robin Hood in Nottingham - Robin Hood Loxley

Regarding Robin Hoods real wife we have a record of Robert Hode and his wife Agnes with property in nearby Handsworth in 1379. This ties in with Robin's retirement years after he left the king's court and returned to Barnsdale.
GENUKI: Subsidy Roll (Poll Tax) for 1379 for the Yorkshire parish of Handsworth

The researcher who sent the link made this comment and there we will have to leave it:
"People from Loxley were rioting in Handsworth and local tradition has it that Robin Hood was in Bowden Homestead Woods which is in Handsworth. There is no knowing if this is the man of legend but the date, name and location are correct."

Last edited by 1an; January 14th, 2017 at 10:45 PM.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 04:46 AM   #139
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It is true that Maid Marion, or any other female figure apart from the Virgin Mary, is not mentioned in the early ballads, however Robin frequently speaks of the Virgin Mary of whom he had the highest regard, and it has been suggested that Maid Marion (Mary) is a corruption of the Virgin Mary, invented by the later fiction writers.
Later fiction writers? If that means the later (post-1500) ballads, like those which include Marian, are a different kind of, fictional, thing to the earlier ones that seems pretty doubtful. They are all stories created on an existing legend, there is a developing tradition since before 1377, there is no reason to think the Geste and other ballads of that time, are in any way 'original' or factual, they are just the earliest that happen to survive.

Quote:
Regarding Robin Hoods real wife we have a record of Robert Hode and his wife Agnes with property in nearby Handsworth in 1379. This ties in with Robin's retirement years after he left the king's court and returned to Barnsdale.
GENUKI: Subsidy Roll (Poll Tax) for 1379 for the Yorkshire parish of Handsworth

The researcher who sent the link made this comment and there we will have to leave it:
"People from Loxley were rioting in Handsworth and local tradition has it that Robin Hood was in Bowden Homestead Woods which is in Handsworth. There is no knowing if this is the man of legend but the date, name and location are correct."
Whether this matches for date depends on certain assumptions. What it does show is that you were right earlier, there are many Robert Hodes around, so one needs to be careful about labelling one as THE man or identifying any two as the same person.

By the way I though you still considered Robert Dore as significant. If so, how would this one tie up with that?
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Old January 15th, 2017, 06:16 AM   #140
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Later fiction writers? If that means the later (post-1500) ballads, like those which include Marian, are a different kind of, fictional, thing to the earlier ones that seems pretty doubtful. They are all stories created on an existing legend, there is a developing tradition since before 1377, there is no reason to think the Geste and other ballads of that time, are in any way 'original' or factual, they are just the earliest that happen to survive.

Whether this matches for date depends on certain assumptions. What it does show is that you were right earlier, there are many Robert Hodes around, so one needs to be careful about labelling one as THE man or identifying any two as the same person.

By the way I though you still considered Robert Dore as significant. If so, how would this one tie up with that?
I do think Robert Dore is significant, see below.

“Robert Dore of Wadsley, otherwise known as Robert Hode (Robin Hood) received the King’s pardon May 22nd, 1382.”

Robin Hood Loxley - Robin Hood Loxley

The connection is obvious, he is Robin Hood, Handsworh has connections with Loxley and the date is right.

Two or three generations later Agnes Hode inherited the houses her brother bought from Robert Outlaw. Seems like there is a family connection with an outlaw called Robert.

Here is the extract for 1510:
Sir Will. Hodge of West Lenn, chantry priest of this chantry, by his will, in 1510, was buried at the east end of our Lady's chapel, in this church, and gives to Agnes Hode his sister, all the houses which he bought of Robert Outlaw, with the garden, for her life; and after her decease, gives them to this chantry, on this condition, that they shall set him in the book with their benefactors, if the King's laws will suffer it, else to be sold by his or their executors.
http://www.mygen.com/users/outlaw/outlawe_timeline.htm

Last edited by 1an; January 15th, 2017 at 07:55 AM.
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