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Old January 7th, 2017, 02:47 AM   #31
1an
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Originally Posted by Calebxy View Post
Well I just mean he probably would have been a bit too old if he was active in the 1320s. Especially since he was supposed to have died a little over 23 years after the king's visit (in 1323), meaning the Robin Hood of the Geste should have died in 1347.

Plus, in any case, the pardoning of Robert Hood in the 1380s is definitely not the pardoning of Robin Hood in the ballads, even if they were the same person, because that took place during King Edward's two-week stay in Nottingham, before he then went on to Lancaster. Edward II's 1323 visit to Nottingham is the only event which matches this, and it also makes sense considering the records show that he did pardon a number of rebels and supporters of Thomas of Lancaster (whose men wore Lincoln green) at this time.
Robin Hood, depending on who you speak to or read, is supposed to have lived in the reigns of King's John and Richard, Henry III, Edward II, etc., and these are just the popular theories, but that is all they are, theories and like Chinese Whispers, one person says something and it becomes fact. The trouble is, real life as recorded in history does not fit any of those scenarios, and if we are looking for a real person, then the candidate needs to fit into a historical period that lines up with the ballads.

Here are some examples.
The first known use of Lincoln Green was at the Battle of Boroughbridge in 1322.

King Edward III ascended the throne 1327.

John Gisbourne, the mayor of York at the time of the Peasant Uprising was born in 1336.

Robin Hood gave the prioress £20 in gold coins, but the first gold coins in England were issued in 1344.

Edward III was known as "our comely king." (Laurence Minot writing in 1352)

William de Trent who was one of the sheriffs men in the ballad Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne, lived on the banks of the River Trent. He witnessed the signing of a document regarding the transfer of land on Wednesday before St. Michael, 30 Edward III. This was 1357.

The chapel in St. Mary’s, Nottingham that Robin attended was not built until 1371.

William Langland’s “Piers Plowman” is the first literary mention we have of Robin Hood. It was about contemporary people, Robin Hood included, and was published in 1377, the year King Edward III “Our Comely King” died.

The impoverished knight, who Robin invited to dine with him at the Saylis, Sir Richard Vernon, was hanged, drawn and quartered after the battle of Shrewsbury in 1403.

It's no wonder Robin Hood has never been found, we have all been looking in the wrong era. True Edward II was in Nottingham, but so was Edward III in 1363 and in Plompton Park c. 1369, after which he "granted a special pardon to all outlaws, except forest officials, who had committed forest offences, doing this in recognition for the 'great aids' the Parliaments had granted him." (Charles R. Young, The Royal Forests of Medieval England (Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1979), p. 147.).

Last edited by 1an; January 7th, 2017 at 03:15 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 05:20 AM   #32
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I don't know if people here have looked at all the discussion about this over the years on the Blue Boar forum.

Basically it amazes me that so much is made of the Geste. It is a ballad (or collection of ballads) - stories, not the authorised biography.

It seems to me highly unlikely that real RH could have lived later than about 1320 (Andrew of Wyntoun was born c 1350 and knew RH was not of his own time, and it would need some time for the legend to be as well known as Langland's reference suggests).

The text of the Geste we have is from about the 1460's, at least a century after any possible original. Look at how the legend developed between 1460 and c1560 - the appearance of Maid Marian, stories with giants, the invention of the aristocratic Robin Hood. It seems unlikely that the Geste is not the product of similar development, and is probably largely or wholly fiction.

This is particularly so if one finds Holt's dicussion of the 'Robinhood' surnames (and especially the nickname William Robehod of the 1260's) convincing, which would give at least 200 years of legend development before the earliest ballads we have.

What has John Gisburne to do with it? The Gisburne in one ballad (story) is a bounty-hunter, not a Mayor, is called Guy not John and Gisburn is not that rare a surname.
The impoverished knight is not named as Vernon, but Sir Richard at the Lee. The only Vernon connection is that a version of the story is in the Vernon MS - named after a 17th Century owner of the document.
How many Williams must have lived by the Trent in the Middle Ages and were called that?
Langland also refers to Ranulf Earl of Chester (in the same line), he's not a contemporary either.

The need is for proper contemporary historical evidence (of which there isn't much), not detailed agreement with much later stories. That's like taking Dumas as an important source for the reign of Louis XIII.

Last edited by johnminnitt; January 7th, 2017 at 05:57 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 06:25 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by 1an View Post
The first known use of Lincoln Green was at the Battle of Boroughbridge in 1322.
And that fits comfortably with the setting of 1322 and 1323 for the Geste.

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Robin Hood gave the prioress £20 in gold coins, but the first gold coins in England were issued in 1344.
That's a good point, but that happened at the very end of Robin's life (it was the prioress who killed him, and on that very occasion, after all), which, if Robin was pardoned during the visit of Edward II in 1323, would have been in c. 1347. That means Robin could well have used gold coins then.

Quote:
William de Trent who was one of the sheriffs men in the ballad Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne, lived on the banks of the River Trent. He witnessed the signing of a document regarding the transfer of land on Wednesday before St. Michael, 30 Edward III. This was 1357.
Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne is not one of the three earliest ballads, is it? It could well be talking about a different Robin. But even if it's the same Robin, there is no guarantee that it's the same William.

Quote:
The chapel in St. Mary’s, Nottingham that Robin attended was not built until 1371.
Are you sure?

Quote:
William Langland’s “Piers Plowman” is the first literary mention we have of Robin Hood. It was about contemporary people, Robin Hood included, and was published in 1377, the year King Edward III “Our Comely King” died.
Well, in the very same sentence in which he mentions Robin Hood, he also mentions 'Randolf Earl of Chester'. He says: 'I know the rhymes of Robin Hood and Randolf Earl of Chester'. And was Randolf a contemporary? No. Though it's not 100% certain who he was, it seems generally agreed that he was one of the Randolf's of the 12th or 13th centuries (see here, here and here). So no, that does not indicate in any way at all that Robin Hood was necessarily a contemporary of William Langland.

Quote:
The impoverished knight, who Robin invited to dine with him at the Saylis, Sir Richard Vernon, was hanged, drawn and quartered after the battle of Shrewsbury in 1403.
That's if Sir Richard Vernon was the Sir Richard of the Lee in question. There was a 'Richard of the Lee' recorded in 1317.

Quote:
It's no wonder Robin Hood has never been found, we have all been looking in the wrong era. True Edward II was in Nottingham, but so was Edward III in 1363 and in Plompton Park c. 1369,
Is Plompton Park the same as Nottingham?

Quote:
after which he "granted a special pardon to all outlaws, except forest officials, who had committed forest offences, doing this in recognition for the 'great aids' the Parliaments had granted him."
I'm a bit confused about your argument. Are you saying that Robin and his men meeting the king and being pardoned happened in Plompton Park in c. 1369, or are you saying that it happened in 1382, when Robert Hood is recorded as being pardoned by the king (which, of course, was not King Edward)?

In fact, I'm a bit confused by your chronology as a whole. If Sir Richard Vernon was executed after fighting in a battle, then surely we can quite comfortably say he was not over 50 when that happened? Most likely a fair bit younger, yes? Yet that was in 1403, so in 1363, when Edward visited Nottingham (which happened after Robin's interaction with Richard of the Lee in the Geste, right?), Richard Vernon would have been about 10 years old - hardly old enough to have been the knight in the story. On the other hand, if you're saying that the events (such as the pardoning of Robin) took place later, in the 1380s, then where does the king's visit to Nottingham come into it?

On the other hand, a date of 1323 for the Geste fits very well. As you said, Lincoln green was used at that time, and specifically by the private army of Thomas of Lancaster. When the king ordered the late Earl's supporters to be dispossessed of their land and persecuted, these men dressed in Lincoln green thereby became enemies of the king, requiring his pardon. The king came to Nottingham for two weeks in 1323 and pardoned many rebels during his stay (this fits with the story exactly, unlike the theory you have presented which has him pardoning outlaws, not during a stay in Nottingham, but after a stay in Plompton Park). Then, a little over two decades later in c. 1347, Robin uses gold coins (which had been introduced in 1344) to pay the prioress, resulting in his death.

On a more speculative note, there's a neat theory that explains why the early ballads keep switching between Bardsdale and Nottingham. Remember that Robin Hood is actually shown to be very rich in the Geste. He has an abundance of cloth and is described by Little John as being probably the wealthiest merchant in England. Now, Geoffrey Luttrell III was a supporter of Thomas of Lancaster, was a very wealthy cloth merchant, and regularly travelled between Barnsdale and Nottingham due to his trade. He had also been a knight, so he obviously would have been capable of leading a band of men and killing people. He died in 1345, which is very close to the estimated year of c. 1347 for Robin's death as provided by the information in the Geste.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 07:21 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by johnminnitt View Post
I don't know if people here have looked at all the discussion about this over the years on the Blue Boar forum.

Basically it amazes me that so much is made of the Geste. It is a ballad (or collection of ballads) - stories, not the authorised biography.

It seems to me highly unlikely that real RH could have lived later than about 1320 (Andrew of Wyntoun was born c 1350 and knew RH was not of his own time, and it would need some time for the legend to be as well known as Langland's reference suggests).

The text of the Geste we have is from about the 1460's, at least a century after any possible original. Look at how the legend developed between 1460 and c1560 - the appearance of Maid Marian, stories with giants, the invention of the aristocratic Robin Hood. It seems unlikely that the Geste is not the product of similar development, and is probably largely or wholly fiction.

This is particularly so if one finds Holt's dicussion of the 'Robinhood' surnames (and especially the nickname William Robehod of the 1260's) convincing, which would give at least 200 years of legend development before the earliest ballads we have.

What has John Gisburne to do with it? The Gisburne in one ballad (story) is a bounty-hunter, not a Mayor, is called Guy not John and Gisburn is not that rare a surname.
The impoverished knight is not named as Vernon, but Sir Richard at the Lee. The only Vernon connection is that a version of the story is in the Vernon MS - named after a 17th Century owner of the document.
How many Williams must have lived by the Trent in the Middle Ages and were called that?
Langland also refers to Ranulf Earl of Chester (in the same line), he's not a contemporary either.

The need is for proper contemporary historical evidence (of which there isn't much), not detailed agreement with much later stories. That's like taking Dumas as an important source for the reign of Louis XIII.
King Edward III held the title Earl of Chester.

Ricardus de Gyseburne, active in 1364 was the bounty hunter.

When King Edward II went looking for Robin Hood, he had two men of that name in his entourage. It was common, Robin Hood's were all over the place. The legendary hero is Robin of Loxley and none of them were from Loxley except the man who was rioting in York.

Had Robin been early, the Geste would be early, but it isn't. You say it dates from around 1460, (Holt says 1450). He goes on to write, “Major’s conception about a 13th century Robin Hood was not reinforced by argument, evidence or proof it was simply recycled through later versions of the tale and so became an integral part of the legend. Neither is this view supported by the earliest ballads, they name the reigning monarch as “Edward.”

Professor Thomas Ohlgren writes "the Geste was commissioned by one of the fifteenth-century guilds-possibly the Dyers Guild in the light of the numerous references to cloth and liveries-to commemorate Edward III not only as the protector of the English Channel but as the founder of seven of the twelve Great Livery Companies.” ​

Further, there is a record of 500 yeomen clothed in tunics and cloaks of Lincoln Green with bows and arrows, swords and bucklers living in the forest shortly after Poitiers. When King John of France (he had been captured at Poitiers) asked what manner of men they were; the Black Prince replied they were Englishmen living rough in the forest by choice and it was their habit to array themselves so every day.” (Holt-Anonimalle Chronicle, ed. V. H. Galbraith), p. 41.)

I will leave it there for now.

---------------------------

Calebxy, can I ask you to read the web site please and then get back to me if you need to. Thanks. http://robinhood-loxley.weebly.com

This will hopefully answer your questions about King Edward. http://robinhood-loxley.weebly.com/r...he-knight.html

Last edited by 1an; January 7th, 2017 at 07:33 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 07:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 1an View Post
King Edward III held the title Earl of Chester.
And generally known as Ranulf? Langland's reference is quite clear, and is not to Edward III.

Quote:
Ricardus de Gyseburne, active in 1364 was the bounty hunter.
So why mention John G of York? Ricardus, of course, is also not called Guy. What is the evidence for his occupation?

Quote:
When King Edward II went looking for Robin Hood, he had two men of that name in his entourage. It was common, Robin Hood's were all over the place. The legendary hero is Robin of Loxley and none of them were from Loxley except the man who was rioting in York.
Loxley is a later reference (Tudor), there were indeed many RH's. The rioter in York is far too late though - reign of Richard II, post-Langland.

Quote:
Had Robin been early, the Geste would be early, but it isn't. You say it dates from around 1460, (Holt says 1450).
Later stories can't be written about earlier heroes? Odd idea, Malory wouldn't agree.
In mentioning Major, Holt was talking about Major's dating of the 1190's, not 13th century. He makes no point about the King's name there, as he is as aware as most people that that sort of detail changes in these stories constantly (we have King Henry in later ballads).

Quote:
Professor Thomas Ohlgren writes the Geste was “commissioned by one of the fifteenth-century guilds-possibly the Dyers Guild in the light of the numerous references to cloth and liveries-to commemorate Edward III not only as the protector of the English Channel but as the founder of seven of the twelve Great Livery Companies.” ​
Probably it was, later story about an earlier hero. Or are you now suggesting a 1450's RH? If it was to commemorate Edward III that would be enough reason for the 'King Edward' reference, written in the 1450's or 60's by a poet who probably had no more idea than we have when the original RH lived.

Quote:
Further, there is a record of 500 yeomen clothed in tunics and cloaks of Lincoln Green with bows and arrows, swords and bucklers living in the forest shortly after Poitiers. When King John of France (he had been captured at Poitiers) asked what manner of men they were; the Black Prince replied they were Englishmen living rough in the forest by choice and it was their habit to array themselves so every day.” (Holt-Anonimalle Chronicle, ed. V. H. Galbraith), p. 41.)

I will leave it there for now.
Which means what? Many took to the forest, some may even have been imitating the legendary RH

Are you really claiming a Vernon connection? Based on what?

Last edited by johnminnitt; January 7th, 2017 at 07:43 AM.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 07:38 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by johnminnitt View Post
And generally known as Ranulf? Langland's refernce is quite clear, and is not to Edward III.

Also not called Guy. What is the evidence for his occupation?

Loxley is a later reference (Tudor), there were indeed many RH's. The rioter in York is far too late though - reign of Richard II, post-Langland.

Quote:
Had Robin been early, the Geste would be early, but it isn't. You say it dates from around 1460, (Holt says 1450).
Later stories can't be written about earlier heroes. Odd idea, Malory wouldn't agree.
In mentioning Major Holt was talking about Major's dating of the 1190's, not 13th century. He makes no point about the King's name there, as he is as aware as most people that that sort of detail changes in these stories constantly (we have King Henry in later ballads).

Probably it was, later story about earlier hero. Or are you now suggesting a 1450's RH?

Which means what? Many took to the forest, some may even have been imitating the legendary RH
You don't have to agree if you don't want to.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Calebxy View Post
And that fits comfortably with the setting of 1322 and 1323 for the Geste.


That's a good point, but that happened at the very end of Robin's life (it was the prioress who killed him, and on that very occasion, after all), which, if Robin was pardoned during the visit of Edward II in 1323, would have been in c. 1347. That means Robin could well have used gold coins then.
Or the gold coins are a detail added in later tellings of the story.



Quote:
Well, in the very same sentence in which he mentions Robin Hood, he also mentions 'Randolf Earl of Chester'. He says: 'I know the rhymes of Robin Hood and Randolf Earl of Chester'. And was Randolf a contemporary? No. Though it's not 100% certain who he was, it seems generally agreed that he was one of the Randolf's of the 12th or 13th centuries (see here, here and here). So no, that does not indicate in any way at all that Robin Hood was necessarily a contemporary of William Langland.
Exactly


Quote:
That's if Sir Richard Vernon was the Sir Richard of the Lee in question. There was a 'Richard of the Lee' recorded in 1317.
There is absolutely no reason (unless someone can give one) to connect the name Vernon with the knight in the Geste.





Quote:
On a more speculative note, there's a neat theory that explains why the early ballads keep switching between Bardsdale and Nottingham. Remember that Robin Hood is actually shown to be very rich in the Geste. He has an abundance of cloth and is described by Little John as being probably the wealthiest merchant in England. Now, Geoffrey Luttrell III was a supporter of Thomas of Lancaster, was a very wealthy cloth merchant, and regularly travelled between Barnsdale and Nottingham due to his trade. He had also been a knight, so he obviously would have been capable of leading a band of men and killing people. He died in 1345, which is very close to the estimated year of c. 1347 for Robin's death as provided by the information in the Geste.
Actually Little John doesn't say that, he says no merchant is richer than RH - not no OTHER merchant. It is absolutely clear that RH is an outlaw not a merchant (and a yeoman, not a knight).
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Old January 7th, 2017, 07:53 AM   #38
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You don't have to agree if you don't want to.
Indeed (though I would if there were any reason to). But surely explaining why one doesn't agree is what a discussion forum is for?
It's also for giving the reasons for what you claim. (Vernon?)
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Old January 7th, 2017, 08:08 AM   #39
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Indeed (though I would if there were any reason to). But surely explaining why one doesn't agree is what a discussion forum is for?
It's also for giving the reasons for what you claim. (Vernon?)
‘Silence’ who is Sir Richard Vernon, the impoverished knight appears in Shakespeare's play Henry IV. He speaks of Robin Hood, Scarlet and John.
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Old January 7th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #40
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‘Silence’ who is Sir Richard Vernon, the impoverished knight appears in Shakespeare's play Henry IV. He speaks of Robin Hood, Scarlet and John.
Justice Silence, in Henry IV part 2, sings odd lines from many ballads, including that one from a RH ballad.
He has nothing to do with Sir Richard Vernon who is a completely separate character in Henry IV part 1. (Executed at the end of that part, and so is dead before Silence ever appears).
Neither of them has anything to do with the knight in the Geste.

Last edited by johnminnitt; January 7th, 2017 at 08:28 AM.
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