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Medieval and Byzantine History Medieval and Byzantine History Forum - Period of History between classical antiquity and modern times, roughly the 5th through 16th Centuries


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Old December 4th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #21

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The Ferghana horses probably originated on the plains north of Persia between Caspian and Ferghana valley east and west and the Aral sea and Bactria in the north and south.

The Ferghana horses were first imported during Han dynasty. These horses are also named 'Han Xue Ma' in Chinese which means “sweat blood horse”. The most commonly accepted theories for the blood sweating is either the pigment of the dust mixing with the horses sweat against golden hair of the horse appeared blood red or that there were some parasites just under the skin of many horses which led to the skin being bloody during great exertion.

The few remaining Akhal-Tekes are Turkmenistan’s national treasure and a famous national emblem. The probably typical coloring of more primitive horses was like this; Grullo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though sometimes zebra patterns or other colors were common when a more primitive ancient type is mixed with a smaller isolated or bred population.
it's quite possible that the "blood sweat horse" was an LP spotted horse. Spotted horses are found in cave paintings Click the image to open in full size.

and research shows that it is actually a very old (prehistoric) coat color. Illustrations show that the spotted horse color occurred both in China and elsewhere in antiquity.
LP Spotted Horses in History
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Old December 4th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #22

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Spotted horses like paints, pinto or piebalds or several other names or are still relatively common. The horses I mentioned earlier can all show such markings.
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Old December 4th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #23

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Click the image to open in full size. joan of arc

Click the image to open in full size. Illuminated, Medieval Horsemanship, France, 15Th Century

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Tacuinum Sanitatis (BNF Nouvelle acquisition latine 1673), c. 1390-1400

compare horse and rider relative sizes to this photo of a modern Frisian and rider:
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Old December 7th, 2014, 08:15 PM   #24
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The question is about the Anglo-Norman horse. Did the Normans under William used them against the Anglo-Saxons, or another type of horse? And what of the Celts, from roman occupation, Celts used some breed of horse, didn't they?
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Old December 7th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #25

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Spotted horses like paints, pinto or piebalds or several other names or are still relatively common. The horses I mentioned earlier can all show such markings.
I was actually referring to what's called "Appaloosa" coloring or the LP gene.
More thoughts on ancient appaloosas | and Coat Color Variation at the Beginning of Horse Domestication Coat Color Variation at the Beginning of Horse Domestication --In that study, ancient remains were tested for the presence of color mutations. The range of tests available at the time included:
Extension (black/red)
Agouti (bay/black)
Cream
Silver
Frame
Sabino1
Tobiano
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tests determined that all but the frame gene were present among the early domesticated horses. That is certainly in keeping with the theory that frame is a New World mutation. It also showed that in the wild populations – horses living somewhere between 15,000 and 3,100 BC and predating domestication – the only mutation was black. The appaloosa patterning gene was found in a wild population. And it wasn’t just one horse. Of the thirty-one samples, six were carrying the mutation for leopard complex (Lp). The German samples with leopard complex date between 15,000 and 11,000 BC, whereas the Romanian with the chestnut allele is 4,300 BC.
It actually appears that chestnut is a newer color than "Appaloosa".
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Old December 7th, 2014, 08:44 PM   #26

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The question is about the Anglo-Norman horse. Did the Normans under William used them against the Anglo-Saxons, or another type of horse? And what of the Celts, from roman occupation, Celts used some breed of horse, didn't they?
Mostly these were all pony type horses, about the look and size of a Dale or Welsh pony.
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Old December 7th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #27
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Mostly these were all pony type horses, about the look and size of a Dale or Welsh pony.
So Europe's most ruthless knights rode ponies, well that is just...embarrassing. Byzantines wouldn't've been surprised to see Robert Guiscard and his knights and nobles come riding in ponies, that would have the Byzantines just tearing up with laughter. I think I know why emperor Alexios Komnenos got away to safety easily...because Normans were riding ponies. Man! I think medievalists would turn a blind eye to this historical part.
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Old December 7th, 2014, 09:35 PM   #28

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So Europe's most ruthless knights rode ponies, well that is just...embarrassing. Byzantines wouldn't've been surprised to see Robert Guiscard and his knights and nobles come riding in ponies, that would have the Byzantines just tearing up with laughter. I think I know why emperor Alexios Komnenos got away to safety easily...because Normans were riding ponies. Man! I think medievalists would turn a blind eye to this historical part.
Ponies aren't that different from normal horses other than size. Actually they often can tolerate more varied diet and are usually more agile though thinking of the Norman horses as 'ponies' is probably misguided. In size they were slightly shorter and smaller than average modern horse but specially selected for temperament then trained intensely for a couple years before appearing in battle. One thing that does separate ponies from modern horses other than size is speed... most ponies have relatively low top speed so I could see a war horse fit for an Emperor being a bit faster...
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Old December 7th, 2014, 09:55 PM   #29

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So Europe's most ruthless knights rode ponies, well that is just...embarrassing.
The Mongols were arguably more terrifying and they rode even smaller horses.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 06:20 AM   #30

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Originally Posted by Azarius Balios View Post
So Europe's most ruthless knights rode ponies, well that is just...embarrassing. Byzantines wouldn't've been surprised to see Robert Guiscard and his knights and nobles come riding in ponies, that would have the Byzantines just tearing up with laughter. I think I know why emperor Alexios Komnenos got away to safety easily...because Normans were riding ponies. Man! I think medievalists would turn a blind eye to this historical part.
14 hands is the usual height division for horse/ pony. A lot of Arab horses are this height. It's not like they were riding Shetlands (although Cnut riding an Icelandic type is probably correct).
see the height of the people vs the horse here (and how close the legs are to the ground)-- Norman conquest:
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Icelandic (probably the horse of the Norse and close to the early Celtic horses):
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
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