Post conquest – who were more tolerant with the vanquished; the Muslims or the Christians? - Historum

cannelidis1 · December 10th, 2009, 10:07 AM

Post conquest – who were more tolerant with the vanquished; the Muslims or the Christians?

We can begin a new thread so you can start ahead of me since I need to take the time to research and shortly I have to head to Tucson for business purposes.

I can begin by simply adding posts about the dhimmi status which some Muslim apologist try to play down. I did not live through this but my ancestors did like many Christians, Jews, Zoastrians, Sabians and later Indians.

At least people of the book like Christians or Jews were given the option to; covert, pay the so-called protection tax or die. Pagans like Hindu were initially only given two choices; covert or die. I know later this changed in India.

Here is a link on dhimmi
http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_archive.html

I need to research more and this weekend we are going tracking for elk in the White Range and possibly spend the night in the wilderness backcountry unless my friends change their minds. I love X-country skiing!! I will be happy to get back to this when I can

Gaius valerius
You are interested in the Coptic Christians; here is a link. Chew on this!!

Governor of Egypt, who wrote to the Caliph Abdel Malik (715-717); “I draw milk; if it stops, I draw blood; if it clots, I press the skin.” The same caliph used to say; Draw milk until it ceases to flow, draw blood until it is exhausted.

Source: see below page 83
It is talking about the Coptic Christians and it is no wonder they are now a minority in Egypt.
http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_copts_1976.pdf

**Efendi** · December 14th, 2009, 01:29 AM

Do muslim act in the same way. I think no. Timur Han is different than Mehmed II. Or Umayad is different than Shah Ismail of Persia.
Islam world is to large to make a generalization. Yet there are good leader there are Tyrans.

I must admit that i don't know much about Christian tolerations on muslim satisfactorily. By the look at many example what happened in Spain to muslims, Slaughter of Muslim in Balkan during the fall of Ottoman empire. Crusaders. You don't have much positive idea.

Arent there wrongs of Islam. there are some are politic, in Ottoman time non muslim ruled according to their own religion. They had right to educate, practice and maintain their religion, they had right to implement their religious laws supported by the state right to make charity organization. They benefited from state service.

What should i compare it with? Rule of the Crusaders? Destruction of Andolos civilization in Spain?

There were christian turks in Ottoman time. Yet there are christian Arabs in Arabia. Are there muslim Italian. muslim Spanish German...etc.

**crossroadclarence** · December 14th, 2009, 01:57 AM

I agree, Efendi: there are too many time and personality factors to make broad conclusions about any of this. Each era must be looked at and both religions must be seen in their true forms then: a total union of Church/Mosque with State.
There are few such States today.

cannelidis1 · December 14th, 2009, 08:51 AM

Over all I can agree there were too many personalities

What should i compare it with? Rule of the Crusaders? Destruction of Andolos civilization in Spain?

You mean the reconquest of former Christian lands and the freedom from dhimmi status for the Jews and Christians. It is true the Roman Catholic Church did some unChrist-like things to the Jews and Muslims after reconquest but the story of Islamic tolerance in the wonderful kingdom of Andolos is a myth. I believe Spencer addresses this! I am not Roman Catholic and it is easy for me to fault with them as well. Also, remember the destruction of Hellenism by the Turkic tribes, Seljuk and others. "The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor" by Spero Vyronis

Efendi - did you get a chance to check out "War of a Thousand Deserts" It is American/Mexican/ Native American history but you would enjoy it. I should start a thread about it but it was four months ago that I read it- anyone else know about this book. Author off hand Bryan Debry

**Efendi** · December 14th, 2009, 09:11 AM

Reconquest or conquest, it is conquering in practice, on the other words conquering some others land by force, with many crimes.

What i see about Andolos is :

Were there muslim society in Spain? -- Yes
Where are they now?

I think you mean i should read Spencer. Lets read when i am available, But for now it is clearly how it seem.

I start to read Vyronis book “Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor”.

I think toleration means To allow sb to do sth that you do not agree with or like. to accept sb/sth that is annoying, unpleasant without complaining.

I think the definition well fit into Ottoman millet system.

I don't think toleration is a good things. We should love people with their wrongs rather than tolerating them with some degree.

I remember you adviced the book before we talked on some other subject. I havent opportunity to check the book. I want to read it. There are some book i should read in the queue. Now reading Vyronis.

cannelidis1 · December 14th, 2009, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Efendi

Reconquest or conquest, it is conquering in practice, on the other words conquering some others land by force, with many crimes.

What i see about Andolos is :

Were there muslim society in Spain? -- Yes
Where are they now?

I think you mean i should read Spencer. Lets read when i am available, But for now it is clearly how it seem.

I start to read Vyronis book “Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor”.

I think toleration means To allow sb to do sth that you do not agree with or like. to accept sb/sth that is annoying, unpleasant without complaining.

I think the definition well fit into Ottoman millet system.

I don't think toleration is a good things. We should love people with their wrongs rather than tolerating them with some degree.

I remember you adviced the book before we talked on some other subject. I havent opportunity to check the book. I want to read it. There are some book i should read in the queue. Now reading Vyronis.

I agree and the past is the past and with more people like you we can move on and change things hopefully. If Islam teaches you to love your fellow man as an equal no matter their beliefs than more power to that form of Islam. I have come across some groups like that in America and one is based in Phoenix, Arizona. Their name eludes me but I support them 1,000%

The same can be said about Egypt - what happened to the Coptic people but this can go on forever. I saw a lot of tolerance in Istanbul and respect so I am sure you have had good people like you throughout Ottoman history, too bad your type was not in control. Mehmed was fine but a few Sultans down the road things got harder for the dhimmi. I need to find a biography about Mehmed- any suggestions???

I cannot remember the source but it could have been in "Balkan Wars" but it talked about the peasant Christians and Muslim. It said there were periods were they got along and the Muslims even would ask the Christian to pray to one of their saints, in times of sickness. This happened off and on in Ottoman history and sadly in the midst of this wonderful tolerance some pious Muslim would come along and say you are not being true Muslims. Then a period of persecution would began towards the dhimmi. It happened in cycles and I am sure not all Muslims took part in the persecution of Jews/Christians in that period.