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Old January 23rd, 2017, 07:39 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by Laurence Kueffer View Post
The Islamic 7th and 8th Century invasion of Armenia was brutal and destructive. Things changed somewhat in the 9th Century, when Arabic and Persian Muslims officially recognized Armenia (884-1045 AD), as a sovereign kingdom.

Armenia during 7th-8th Century Armenia under the rule of Arab Caliphate

Bagratid Armenia lasted from 884 to 1045 AD - 100 Years, 100 Facts about Armenia to commemorate the centennial of the Armenian Genocide100 Years, 100 Facts about Armenia to commemorate the centennial of the Armenian Genocide


You have the same opinion on Constantine the Great, whom was a Christian fighter and Emperor of Rome during the 4th century...as you do of for example Muhammad...or is it just the early Muslims whom you find to be violent invaders?

Are you saying Islam is violent and barbaric while Christianity is a beautiful angel?

I'm not saying all Muslims and all Christians of all time were tolerant people but its impossible for one to be a non hypocrite when they are critical of Muhammad and the early Muslims without being critical of pretty much every other group of mankind.

No group including Arab Muslims or Armenian Christians are above criticism, Ill agree with that.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 07:47 AM   #12

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I am not sure about this OP document. For one thing Armenia was conquered by Arabs, before Ali became Caliph: The Arab conquest of Armenia was a part of the Muslim conquests after the death of Muhammad in 632 CE. Persian Armenia had fallen to the Arab Rashidun Caliphate by 645 CE. Byzantine Armenia was already conquered in 638639. - as per wiki.

What business does this Ali has in stating how to treat Armenians? Armenians should be treated how Armenians like to be treated. If Ali was as good as he was described in the OP, his Muslims should not have been allowed to conquer, plunder and rape other peoples, like Armenians. This Ali was no different from the rest of the three Caliphs. All those four Caliphs were bad, just as bad as the killer Mohammed.

Good thing is that Ali was murdered, just like the two other Caiphs. Good riddance!

Do you say the same of other religions or just Islam?

I have nothing against you or anyone whom is critical of religion. The issue is with those who refuse to hire a person due to skin color or religion.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 11:33 PM   #13

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Arabic sources especially have a monstrous tendency to post-glorify, so need to be treated with extreme caution.

I've come across one of these 'speeches' before. Tariq in Hispania. Times when we can barely make out events at all, then someone suggests whole speeches are dictated, recorded and passed down in history.

The whole idea is rather ridiculous but at least gives rise to some healthy debate.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 11:11 AM   #14

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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
You have the same opinion on Constantine the Great, whom was a Christian fighter and Emperor of Rome during the 4th century...as you do of for example Muhammad...or is it just the early Muslims whom you find to be violent invaders
Constantine the Great is a red herring; I'd understand better, with specific examples, or events. As I understand it, Constantine fought to preserve authority in the empire, his prayers answered in a vision of hope (that pointed to faith in Christianity). We need more than that to place him among "violent invaders" of history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
Are you saying Islam is violent and barbaric while Christianity is a beautiful angel?
No, I was giving a fact check commentary about the Islamic treatment of Christian Armenia in the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th Centuries, because you opened the thread in that context. Armenia suffered greatly from Islamic brutalities in the 7th and 8th Centuries, but things changed and improved greatly in the 9th and 10th Centuries. In the 11th Century, Armenia was caught between Byzantine treachery and Turkic invasions. My quote didn't imply that "Islam is violent and barbaric" while "Christianity is a beautiful angel" (those are your words), but it's open to our speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
I'm not saying all Muslims and all Christians of all time were tolerant people but its impossible for one to be a non hypocrite when they are critical of Muhammad and the early Muslims without being critical of pretty much every other group of mankind.

No group including Arab Muslims or Armenian Christians are above criticism, Ill agree with that.
No, we can point to the source of the conflicts, without claiming that one side or the other was free of abuses and atrocities. Islam carved much of its empire out of former Christian lands; and, Christian Wars against Islam were often enough about the preservation of Christianity against the rising tide of Islam. It's not hypocritical to be critical of Islam, and at the same time realize that Islam was advancing, while Christianity was retreating, during those centuries.

As for Armenia, it found itself confronting a number of larger entities, during those centuries, and the centuries that followed. If anyone was innocent in this struggle, it would've been the Armenians, whom simply wanted to practice their faith, without an interest in invading foreign countries.

This just clouds the issue, and unnecessarily complicates it, when placing equal blame, equating the smaller besieged Armenian Kingdom with the larger clearly aggressive Islamic and Byzantine threats. It's simply unjust.

Last edited by Laurence Kueffer; January 24th, 2017 at 11:13 AM.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 08:56 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Laurence Kueffer View Post
Constantine the Great is a red herring; I'd understand better, with specific examples, or events. As I understand it, Constantine fought to preserve authority in the empire, his prayers answered in a vision of hope (that pointed to faith in Christianity). We need more than that to place him among "violent invaders" of history.
He killed thousands of Christians before converting to Christianity. He wasn't a saint.

Just as Trdat of Armenia did before his conversion to Christianity. Then did the same to the pagans in Armenia for not converting to Christianity. I cant find any thing showing that there were churches in ancient Armenian lands before Trdat's conversion.

Unfortunately, that is what happens when a new religion sweeps across a land.

That being said, aside from Trdat, I cant find anything else that states that Armenians forced their religion of Christianity to it's neighbors. I don't believe that they did either.
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