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-   -   Ancient Egypt craniometric variation - Afrocentrists debunked (http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/109179-ancient-egypt-craniometric-variation-afrocentrists-debunked.html)

Evil May 15th, 2016 04:39 PM

Ancient Egypt craniometric variation - Afrocentrists debunked
 
http://meeting.physanth.org/program...cient-egypt-and-influences-from-the-east.html
Craniometric variation in Ancient Egypt and influences from the East
The 84th Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (2015)
Egypt’s central location between Europe, the Middle East, and Africa likely contributed to its genetic diversity. Numerous studies have analyzed population variation of Ancient Egyptians to establish their origins. Debate about its affinity has historically focused on ancestry and the effects of migration into Egypt from the Nubian corridor, Red Sea littoral, and the eastern Mediterranean. While these regions surely contributed to Egypt’s diversity, few studies have examined how this manifested in a particular location. What might the “local data” indicate about the broader implications of diverse morphometric expression?
For this research, 16 cranial measurements were collected from 3D computed tomography models of 25 Egyptian mummies, most of which originated from Akhmim and primarily date to the Ptolemaic Period. Individuals were classified using discriminant function analysis and cluster analysis into the Howells’ Craniometric Data Bank. These results were then situated within our current understanding of Egyptian population affinity.
The results suggest a high degree of heterogeneity. Seven individuals classified as Egyptian, while three classified into another African group and nine classified into Asian groups. Using cluster analysis, most individuals grouped within Howells’ Egyptians with the exception of one. The proximity of the Arabian Peninsula to Egypt and the narrowness of the Red Sea likely facilitated the migration of populations from Eastern and Western Asia into Egypt. The high percentage of individuals (36%) that classified into an Asian group rather than the Egyptian, African, or European samples may also suggest a greater influx of groups from the East then previously considered.

Ancient Egyptian population biology | Sciforums



Evil May 15th, 2016 04:43 PM

As Klales points out although 17/25 crania date to the Greek (Ptolemaic) rule of Egypt when there was movement of peoples there from Greece which might be thought to be poorly representative of the native Egyptian population, Akhmim:

"...effectively resisted Ptolemaic rule for a time and remained 'native Egyptian' (Chan et al. 2008:2024). Therefore, it can be assumed that the population of Akhmim from the Ptolemaic period would have remained more biologically stable, despite in-migrations, than other areas of Egypt at this time and comparisons can be drawn to investigate population continuity and change in the entirety of Egypt."

- Klales, A. R. (2014). "Computed Tomography Analysis and Reconstruction of Ancient Egyptians Originating from the Akhmim Region of Egypt: A Biocultural Perspective". PhD Thesis. University of Manitoba

Evil May 15th, 2016 04:44 PM

"A high degree of heterogeneity in this sample is suggested by the fact that 25 individuals classified into 11 different populations... most of the individuals in the sample (n=18) were classified into a group outside of Egypt. The low typicalities for virtually of all these individuals, suggest that although they were forcibly classified into a particular group, they are highly atypical and non-representative of that particular group into which they were grouped. Overall, these results suggest a high degree of variation in the sample, as well as, a complex population history, likely with influences from many regions... The Akhmim sample proved to be incredibly diverse with individuals classifying into many widespread populations." (Klales, 2014)

Evil May 15th, 2016 04:47 PM

In 2014, the anthropologist Alexandra Klales took measurements from 25 ancient Egyptian crania from Akhmim, Upper Egypt. One of these skulls (AMSC 29) dates to the First Intermediate Period (c. 2181 - c. 2055 BCE), three (AMSC 6, 9, 30) date to the Third Intermediate Period (c. 1069 - c. 664 BCE), four date to the Late Period c. 664 - c. 332 BCE (AMSC 8, 19, 20, 23) and seventeen to the Ptolemaic Period c. 332 - c. 30 BCE (AMSC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 25, 27).

Here are the results when compared to the 28 world-wide populations from Howell's Craniometric Data Bank:

AMSC 1 = Zalavar (ZAL)
AMSC 2 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 3 = North Japan (NJA)
AMSC 4 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 5 = Guam (GUA)
AMSC 6 = Dogon (DOG)
AMSC 7 = South Japan (SJA)
AMSC 8 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 9 = Zulu (ZUL)
AMSC 10 = Ainu (AIN)
ASMC 11 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 12 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 13 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 14 = Ainu (AIN)
AMSC 15 = North Japan (NJA)
AMSC 16 = Ainu (AIN)
AMSC 17 = Ainu (AIN)
AMSC 18 = Moriori (MOR)
AMSC 19 = Zulu (ZUL)
AMSC 20 = Ainu (AIN)
AMSC 23 = Egypt (EGY)
AMSC 25 = Ainu (AIN)
AMSC 27 = Eskimo (ESK)
AMSC 29 = Moriori (MOR)
AMSC 30 = Mokapu (MOK)


Note that only 3/25 (12%) of the Akhmim skulls group with populations (as craniometric means) from Sub-Saharan Africa: AMSC 6 = Dogon, AMSC 9 = Zulu (ZUL), AMSC 19 = Zulu (ZUL). In my view this study debunks Afrocentric claims (e.g. Diop) the ancient Egyptians had close biological affinities to Sub-Saharan African populations.

Pruitt May 15th, 2016 05:39 PM

Still, it is only 25 people out of how many? If the common people were not getting tombs and embalmed they could have completely different skull measurements. There is no way a 25 people sample can accurately reflect what Egyptians were.

Pruitt

Son Of RA May 15th, 2016 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil (Post 2512417)
http://meeting.physanth.org/program...cient-egypt-and-influences-from-the-east.html
Craniometric variation in Ancient Egypt and influences from the East
The 84th Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (2015)
Egypt’s central location between Europe, the Middle East, and Africa likely contributed to its genetic diversity. Numerous studies have analyzed population variation of Ancient Egyptians to establish their origins. Debate about its affinity has historically focused on ancestry and the effects of migration into Egypt from the Nubian corridor, Red Sea littoral, and the eastern Mediterranean. While these regions surely contributed to Egypt’s diversity, few studies have examined how this manifested in a particular location. What might the “local data” indicate about the broader implications of diverse morphometric expression?
For this research, 16 cranial measurements were collected from 3D computed tomography models of 25 Egyptian mummies, most of which originated from Akhmim and primarily date to the Ptolemaic Period. Individuals were classified using discriminant function analysis and cluster analysis into the Howells’ Craniometric Data Bank. These results were then situated within our current understanding of Egyptian population affinity.
The results suggest a high degree of heterogeneity. Seven individuals classified as Egyptian, while three classified into another African group and nine classified into Asian groups. Using cluster analysis, most individuals grouped within Howells’ Egyptians with the exception of one. The proximity of the Arabian Peninsula to Egypt and the narrowness of the Red Sea likely facilitated the migration of populations from Eastern and Western Asia into Egypt. The high percentage of individuals (36%) that classified into an Asian group rather than the Egyptian, African, or European samples may also suggest a greater influx of groups from the East then previously considered.

Ancient Egyptian population biology | Sciforums




Debunked in what exactly? This is from the Ptolemaic Period which was not only very late, but seen significant migrations from outside of Egypt. And your own source only says 36% grouped with Asians.

When we go back much earlier to earlier dynastic periods we see a much different picture.
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1291786580
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/o...endrogram2.jpg

^^^ Ugandans and Tanzanians clustering with Egyptians even BEFORE Modern Egyptians from Cairo and Greeks?

And of course we have this from Holiday 2013...
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse13095c4.jpg

Now show me skulls in Egypt before the Ptolemic Period being distant from Africans.

Evil May 15th, 2016 07:48 PM

The inhabitants of Akhmim during Ptolemaic Egypt mixed far less with outsiders than the other Egyptian cities and did not adopt much foreign (Greek) culture; this was one of the benefits of the study as Klales mentions:

"Therefore, it can be assumed that the population of Akhmim from the Ptolemaic period would have remained more biologically stable, despite in-migrations, than other areas of Egypt at this time and comparisons can be drawn to investigate population continuity and change in the entirety of Egypt." (Klales, 2014)

"In Ptolemaic times, when Egypt was governed by a dynasty of Macedonian origin
imbued with the cultural values of pan-Hellenism, Akhmim remained firmly in the “native Egyptian” societal sphere." (Chan et al. 2008)

Regardless, the study included some earlier skulls (see above); AMSC 29 dates to the First Intermediate Period (c. 2181 - c. 2055 BCE) and its closest craniometric affinity is with a non-African population.

Another point, Afrocentrists seem to spam that dendogram from Kemp (2006) without looking very closely, i.e. note how New Kingdom skulls (c. 1550 - 1077 BCE) from Thebes cluster with ancient Levantines and 'modern' Egyptians.

Son Of RA May 15th, 2016 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil (Post 2512483)
The inhabitants of Akhmim during Ptolemaic Egypt mixed far less with outsiders than the other Egyptian cities and did not adopt much foreign (Greek) culture; this was one of the benefits of the study as Klales mentions:

"Therefore, it can be assumed that the population of Akhmim from the Ptolemaic period would have remained more biologically stable, despite in-migrations, than other areas of Egypt at this time and comparisons can be drawn to investigate population continuity and change in the entirety of Egypt." (Klales, 2014)

"In Ptolemaic times, when Egypt was governed by a dynasty of Macedonian origin
imbued with the cultural values of pan-Hellenism, Akhmim remained firmly in the “native Egyptian” societal sphere." (Chan et al. 2008)

Regardless, the study included some earlier skulls (see above); AMSC 29 dates to the First Intermediate Period (c. 2181 - c. 2055 BCE) and its closest craniometric affinity is with a non-African population.

Another point, Afrocentrists seem to spam that dendogram from Kemp (2006) without looking very closely, i.e. note how New Kingdom skulls (c. 1550 - 1077 BCE) from Thebes cluster with ancient Levantines and 'modern' Egyptians.


Still waiting for sources addressing earlier dynastic periods...

"Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans." (S. O. Y and A.J. Boyce, "The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians", in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press, 1996, pp. 20-33)

"In this regard it is interesting to note that limb proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning that the distal segments are
elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans
.....skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics." (-- C.L. Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..")


And as for the bolded nowhere does it show that. Either way Barry Kemp states this...
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation.(2005) Routledge.

AncientA May 15th, 2016 09:36 PM

I never understood the Egyptian obsession

I'm Very sure ancient Egypt weren't sub-Saharan African
if so let's say they were black (Which is Not TRUE)

So ? And ? It Wouldn't change anything , it's like Spanish Claiming Italian History ,
African-American think if the Egyptian were black it would make a difference
I think they should focus on western African civilization instead

Evil May 16th, 2016 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son Of RA (Post 2512484)
And as for the bolded nowhere does it show that. Either way Barry Kemp states this...
"..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans."
Barry Kemp, Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation.(2005) Routledge.

See yellow. NK Thebes clusters with ancient Levant (8th century BCE Lachish); most of the modern Egyptian skeletal samples are also closer to the ancient Egyptians than the modern Sub-Saharan African samples (Tanzania, Uganda). Also take a look at the position of Siwa Oasis (4th - 1st century BCE) and Giza (26th - 30th dynasty).

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/...%20colored.jpg


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