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Old September 17th, 2016, 11:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tsar View Post
@Tulun

Amateur? Oh come on, I haven't seen anyone with nearly as much knowledge abot the Ottomans here

Yes, it seems that we are interested in same topics, but my knowledge is sadly very small, I'm just starting with serious research.
My knowledge is based mostly on literature.

@THE TURK

I do speak contemporary Turkish and I've started studying Ottoman Turkish about a month ago. I also have some basic knowledge of Arabic.

I've read most of Inalcik's works, but I need to get to the next level. Anyways thanks a lot on your contribution, it will surely be of use to other users.
I've found very rewarding Suraiya Faroqhi's Approaching Ottoman History: An Introduction to the Sources as a starting point.

i'm sure you also like the author, i really recommend all of her works, she is also under the Braudelian/ Annales school influence which i really love myself. has many books and articles in English and some of them translated to Turkish too.

On Ottoman economic history an earlier classic general work is Mustafa Akdağ's Türkiye'nin İktisadi ve İçtimai Tarihi (Economic and Social History of Turkey), though it only covers from the begginning to 1559.

From more recent scholars strictly price, financial history Şevket Pamuk's works are great (English and Turkish also)

Btw some contemporary great Ottomanists thankfully also use academia.edu like Heath Lowry, Ismail E. Erünsal, Gábor Ágoston etc where they also made some of their articles or even 1-2 books too are available for the public.

also forgot to add to the online sources this site

TÜB?TAK ULAKB?M DergiPark various Turkish university journals are searchable and available online here on different fields

and the 21 volume Türkler Ansiklopedisi: https://archive.org/details/TurklerAnsiklopedisi

those volumes (from 9th-14th vols) covering the Ottoman period are usually very good, written by the leading contemporary Ottomanists.

Last edited by Tulun; September 17th, 2016 at 11:37 AM.
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Old September 17th, 2016, 02:20 PM   #12

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IDK how well You are managing in French, but recently I red a couple of interesting articles on Ottomans in "Revue de l'Occident musulman et de la Méditerranée". (some articles are in English).

I thought that maybe You could find something interesting You.

The volume I was reading :
Revue de l'Occident musulman et de la Méditerranée, n°39, 1985. Les Ottomans en Méditterranée - Navigation, diplomatie, commerce. - Persée

I would council You the French Persée : Portail de revues en sciences humaines et sociales, it's an interesting portal for on line reads, and it has a rather good search tool and You can refine Your search quit well. You can turn it on English.

As an example, this would be the results for a dumb request "Ottomans" + "English":
Résultats des recherches - Persée

Maybe it will help You ?

Last edited by deaf tuner; September 17th, 2016 at 02:23 PM.
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Old September 17th, 2016, 04:13 PM   #13

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if general Ottoman history online, another classic, Hammer-Purgstall's monumental Geschichte des Osmanischen Reiches is also on archive.org (and some other works of him too) i believe (also translated to English?).
It's quite interesting that there are not many sources translated to English language. And pretty fascinating that the second most important language for researching secular works on the Ottoman Empire seems to be German. I have no idea how those Germans in 1800's managed to learn so many single things of the Ottoman Empire that Turks themselves had to learn their own history from those Germans/Austrians! Hungarian Turkogolists were also super good. Quite sad to see that Turks at that time (Prior to 1840's) were still in their middle ages.

I have Hammer's works in Turkish - 1947 publication Mehmet Ata. I would like to see the english translation - though notice that it was still a summery of full work. Archieve.org has quite good sources indeed - Hammer's translation of first the two volumes of Evliya Chelebi is there too. I took many latin books on the Ottoman Empire from there, I try to learn Latin in my spare time these days.

The problem with many secondary sources on the Ottoman Empire and Turks, there are tremendous among of them, yet only small amount of them are really valuable. I can even claim that Hammer's works with Cevdet Pasha's works are the base of vast majority of them - Only small corrections here and there, and simplyfing the subject for general readers. Have a look at this Turkler Ansiklopedisi for instance. I would definitely not like to read it when I have Hammer, the godfather of their thoughts and approaches as far as the Ottoman history goes. Just notice who is the leader of this publication: Terrible Yusuf Hallacoglu, the very person that when Lowry studied tahrir books of pontus region and demonstrated that majority of natives in Trabzon were converted Pontians (son of Abdullahs), then he arranged a group of his PhD students to publish a pseudoscientific research on the same subject, to disprove Lowry's works, rather desperately.

Even Halil Inalcik is also disputable for his thoughts on the early Ottomans, while he was probably the most knowledgeable person, almost like an holy authority on the Ottoman history in general. after 70 years of his works which are nothing but to support the work of Hammer, Wittek's Ghaza theory, and the work of Koprulu, In his last days of his life he was interviewed that he finally came to a new conclusion on the early Ottomans which suggests a mixed-race theory, which is what Gibbons wrote about a hundred hears ago, more aggressively.

So, In many other sources here, which of them are valuable to read really? Some of them as I said, just a repetition of Hammer, Koprulu et al. Some of them are though, quite interesting. Which are they? I would more like to hear it than usual propaganda stuffs. That's why I give much weight to Cantemir and Gibbons as well as Hammers et al.

In general Turkish universities produces either useless information - driven by blind nationalism or extremely specific researches that only specialists may care. You can't find original ideas, theories, discussions or critics in there. It's my understanding that right now almost only American universities produce good quality information as far as the controversial topics of Ottomans go. Look at Lowry for instance.

Or Kafadar, If Kafadar had still been in Turkish universities, could he have written a quite quality book like Between Two Worlds: The Construction of the Ottoman State? Don't really know.
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Old September 19th, 2016, 01:48 PM   #14

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Thank you all, the thread's developing way better than I expected

Yeah, I know that the situation with the Ottoman studies is not perfect, but we should not think it's all hopeless. Every area of study has its bright and less-than-bright days.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 05:13 PM   #15
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Very little info on the early Ottomans as far as I know....

Besides, there isn't a large active attempt to interpret older documents in Turkish/Arab and uncover early Ottoman history at the moment.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 06:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TURK View Post
It's quite interesting that there are not many sources translated to English language. And pretty fascinating that the second most important language for researching secular works on the Ottoman Empire seems to be German. I have no idea how those Germans in 1800's managed to learn so many single things of the Ottoman Empire that Turks themselves had to learn their own history from those Germans/Austrians! Hungarian Turkogolists were also super good. Quite sad to see that Turks at that time (Prior to 1840's) were still in their middle ages.

I have Hammer's works in Turkish - 1947 publication Mehmet Ata. I would like to see the english translation - though notice that it was still a summery of full work. Archieve.org has quite good sources indeed - Hammer's translation of first the two volumes of Evliya Chelebi is there too. I took many latin books on the Ottoman Empire from there, I try to learn Latin in my spare time these days.

The problem with many secondary sources on the Ottoman Empire and Turks, there are tremendous among of them, yet only small amount of them are really valuable. I can even claim that Hammer's works with Cevdet Pasha's works are the base of vast majority of them - Only small corrections here and there, and simplyfing the subject for general readers. Have a look at this Turkler Ansiklopedisi for instance. I would definitely not like to read it when I have Hammer, the godfather of their thoughts and approaches as far as the Ottoman history goes. Just notice who is the leader of this publication: Terrible Yusuf Hallacoglu, the very person that when Lowry studied tahrir books of pontus region and demonstrated that majority of natives in Trabzon were converted Pontians (son of Abdullahs), then he arranged a group of his PhD students to publish a pseudoscientific research on the same subject, to disprove Lowry's works, rather desperately.

Even Halil Inalcik is also disputable for his thoughts on the early Ottomans, while he was probably the most knowledgeable person, almost like an holy authority on the Ottoman history in general. after 70 years of his works which are nothing but to support the work of Hammer, Wittek's Ghaza theory, and the work of Koprulu, In his last days of his life he was interviewed that he finally came to a new conclusion on the early Ottomans which suggests a mixed-race theory, which is what Gibbons wrote about a hundred hears ago, more aggressively.

So, In many other sources here, which of them are valuable to read really? Some of them as I said, just a repetition of Hammer, Koprulu et al. Some of them are though, quite interesting. Which are they? I would more like to hear it than usual propaganda stuffs. That's why I give much weight to Cantemir and Gibbons as well as Hammers et al.

In general Turkish universities produces either useless information - driven by blind nationalism or extremely specific researches that only specialists may care. You can't find original ideas, theories, discussions or critics in there. It's my understanding that right now almost only American universities produce good quality information as far as the controversial topics of Ottomans go. Look at Lowry for instance.

Or Kafadar, If Kafadar had still been in Turkish universities, could he have written a quite quality book like Between Two Worlds: The Construction of the Ottoman State? Don't really know.
Not that i disagree with some of your general remarks but in this particular point Hammer's History and the Türkler Ansiklopedisi are simply not rivals of each other, they are different genres. Hammer's work is an early 19th century narrative political history relying on the narrative sources that were available to him (and Ottoman archival documents were still inaccessible, the modern scholarly research of them only started in the 20th century) while the latter is a modern huge collection of articles from various modern authors on various specific topics. i have also found there debatable quality ones, though rather more among those covering earlier periods in previous volumes, but i think those about the Ottoman Empire are generally quite okay, academic level to the international standards, some of them written by leading foreign Ottomanists (but haven't read all of course, just what topics interested me).

Also i think i belong to that minority that like to read more those specialized researches on particular (sometimes obscure) topics, but that is de gustibus. but at the end the modern big summary works are (or should be ideally) the sinthesis of the researches made by specialists.

Last edited by Tulun; September 21st, 2016 at 06:48 AM.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 03:09 PM   #17
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It is well-known that archiving was important for Ottomans. We must note that lots of valuable Ottoman archives and other books written in Osmanli or in Arabic have been burnt or sold like toilet paper throughout the Republic era as a result of the stupid kemalist bigotry, meanwhile smart foreign scholars made their best to retrieve them in order to study them. This really is a disgrace. The consequence is that lots of Ottoman archives were destroyed and many others are dispersed in western libraries. An other consequence is that Turks are cut off from their past and know little about Ottoman history. It is striking how a French amateur historian knows myriad details on the French monarchy compared with a Turkish counterpart on Ottoman history. It is honorable to study history straight to the source and make a strictly personal judgement no matter it is positive or negative, rather than say, learning Ottoman history through the narrow prism of a highly biased American missionary of the late Ottoman period like Gibbons for instance ...
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Old September 23rd, 2016, 08:08 AM   #18
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i think most manuscript books that are now in western libraries were bought by travellers, diplomats, missionaries, spies, orientalists etc in the Ottoman Empire from normal booksellers.
Archival state documents are a different story of course, those of them which are now in western countries mostly ended up there as booties (apart from the officially sent diplomatic documents) , for example the different types of defters that are now found in the Austrian State Archives were captured in the Habsburg-Ottoman war in the late 17th century (from the same loot some ended up in other German archives too).

For example the Mufassal (detailed) Defter of the Sandjak of Szigetvar from the year 1579 in the Bavarian State Library is also from this category i believe
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...ges/index.html


Then the Lausanne peace treaty (just like all other ww1 peace treaties) also included provisions on handing over the relevant administrative archival documents that were of the interest of the lost territories, but i don't know how well were these document transfers executed.

I don't know were there similar provisions in the peace treaties of the previous wars too? Balkan wars, Russo-Ottoman wars etc?

btw even if the original Ottoman documents themselves are mostly not online yet on these western collections (the above linked defter is an exception i'm afraid), maybe it wouldn't be bad idea to also collect here the links of relevant online catalogues of the various European libraries where Ottoman sources are found in bigger numbers.

Last edited by Tulun; September 23rd, 2016 at 09:08 AM.
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Old September 24th, 2016, 05:00 AM   #19
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This site has a Bibliography of sources on an interesting topic, Polish-Ottoman relations, if you're interested:

Polonia Ottomanica: Bibliographies
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Old September 27th, 2016, 06:09 PM   #20

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Thank you all!

I stumbled upon some of the sources, sorry if I double-post a link or two:

Abdul Hamid II collections - Search Results: "" - Prints & Photographs Online Catalog (Library of Congress)

Dede Korkut - https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Book_...orkut/Prologue

Kucuk Kaynarca (in Turkish) - https://tr.wikisource.org/wiki/K%C3%...C5%9Fmas%C4%B1

Oral traditions - Archive of Turkish Oral Narrative &#149&#149 T&#252rk &#214yk&#252rleri Sand&#305&#287&#305

Excerpts of Busbecq's Turkish Letters - Internet History Sourcebooks

Shaikh Hasan Al Kafrawi on the status of the Jews and the Christians - Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Sidi Ali Reis, The Mirror of Countries - Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Something about Muhammad Ali Pasha - Historical Text Archive: Electronic History Resources, online since 1990

Lady Montagu on vaccination - Internet History Sourcebooks

Sir Eton's Survey (1799) - Internet History Sourcebooks

The commercial treaty between the Ottomans and the USA - Avalon Project - Treaty of Commerce and Navigation Between the United States and the Ottoman Empire; February 25, 1862

A very small excerpt of Kritovoulos - http://lgdata.s3-website-us-east-1.a...os_History.pdf

A tereke defteri from Andros (1711) - OTTOMAN DOCUMENTS OF KAIREIOS LIBRARY OF ANDROS - IMS - FORTH
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