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Old November 2nd, 2016, 03:52 PM   #11

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Originally Posted by Swagganaut View Post
Thanks for you effort, I appreciate that.
Sure, no problem.


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There are many more primary sources concerning Nubia than the ones I listed, but the thing is that they aren't about Alodia but only Makuria. Makuria had been in the focus of Islamic schoolars for centuries, since it was the direct neighbour of Egypt. Meanwhile, Alodia has much less sources since its contacts to the Islamic were only indirect, mercantile ones.
Btw, Vantinis "Oriental sources" can be found here:Welcome To Medieval Nubia - Giovanni Vantini's Oriental Sources Concerning Nubia
I see. And thanks for the link.

Quote:
What does it say about Alodia? My Jstor shelf is already full and I can't change stuff for an other two weeks.
Looking over the article again, Alodia is mentioned on more than one page, so I'll just post the article:

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(For anyone else reading the thread besides Swagganaut, it should be noted that while the penultimate page of the article refers to "the treaty made with the Nubian king after the successful bombardment of the capital city, then Dongola - the terms have been preserved by Makrizi", the reality is that there was no "successful bombardment of the capital city", because the invading forces actually lost. Jay Spaulding's 1995 article about the baqt treaty that I referred to above explains how Arab writers who wrote many centuries after the 652 battle, especially Al-Makrizi, distorted the circumstances under which the baqt treaty originated.)

Quote:
Considering its date I would assume that it's mostly based on the results of the Unesco excavations in lower Nubia and Shinnies excavation in Soba. For the later I already have the whole book on my USB-port.
Okay. I figured you were probably familiar with it already. This is the sole image from the article, showing some pottery designs:

Click the image to open in full size.




Quote:
Sennar is of use for me pretty much only concerning possible continuities in terms of customs and political organization (Like court structure, for example).
Btw, I really like the Bornu tradition concerning the Fung origins. I have read a bit about Fung warfare and its parades, and there are striking similiarities to the states of the western Bilad al-Sudan.
Yeah I thought that could be the only possible relevance of Sennar, since it is outside the timeline you are looking into.

Quote:
I also find this part interesting:
I want to learn more about the spread of Arabs in central Sudan and how it might have affected the decline of Alodia. The most important work on that field is McMichaels "A history of the Arabs in the Sudan", but whenever I try to read it I get pretty hard headaches.
It's that boring huh?


Quote:
Yup, the Shilluk are Nilotic.
That wasn't the only error in the article. There were at least two more. I skipped a few things when posting the excerpt that seemed to contain obvious errors.

Quote:
I have the complete book already. Afaik it's still the only larger work about Alodia, at least outside of Sudanese literature. The big problem of that book is however that it was published before the results of Welbsys excavations in Soba have been published.
I can also list other important secondary literature I already own:

1) David Edwards - The Nubian past, 2004 (A couple of pages about the state of archaeology in Alodia)
2) Derek Welsby & C. Daniels - "Soba. Archaeological Research on a Medieval Capital on the Blue Nile", 1991
3) Derek Welsby - "Soba II. Soba II. Renewed excavations within the metropolis of the Kingdom of Alwa in Central Sudan", 1998
4) Derek Welsby - "Meroitic Soba" in "Meroitica", 1999
5) Derek Welsby - "Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia", 2001 (Welsby tries his best to include as many references to Alodia and his excavations in Soba as possible)
6) Giovanni Vantini - "Some new Light on the End of Soba" in "Acta Nubica", 2006
7) Grzegorz Ochała - "Multilingualism in Christian Nubia" in "Dotawo", 2014 (Briefly summarizes the state and amount of indigenous written sources)
8) P. Shinnie - "Excavations at Soba", 1961
9) Roland Werner - "Das Christentum in Nubien", 2013 (Important German work for Medieval Nubia in general)
Once again, not surprised you've already looked into this in depth and are already familiar with that source.


Quote:
I didn't mention David Reubeni since he is interesting only concerning the state of Soba, which he describes in ruins. This exludes the claim of the Fung chronicle that Soba had been the capital of the early kingdom. Also proves in what miserable state the former Alodian capital must have been even in late Alodian times.
Does it really prove that Soba wasn't the capital of the early Funj kingdom?

At the time Reubeni visited Sennar, its ruler was already Muslim. But if it started out as a Christian kingdom as Jay Spaulding suggests, then there were earlier rulers. Couldn't the earlier Christian rulers have used Soba as their capital, before its ruin? Or is there some other known capital used by the Christian rulers who preceded the first Muslim king?
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Old November 4th, 2016, 10:15 PM   #12

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Sorry for the late reply, my lethargy often prevents me from doing stuff as quickly as I initially planed to.

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Looking over the article again, Alodia is mentioned on more than one page, so I'll just post the article:

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Thank you for your effort. Sadly, it didn't brought any new insights for me, but that was expected due to the paper already beeing kinda dated. What might help me are theories based on this and that aspect of Alodian culture, beeing it by mere speculation or by the study of Islamic / Funj sources or oral traditions.

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Okay. I figured you were probably familiar with it already. This is the sole image from the article, showing some pottery designs:

Click the image to open in full size.
Jup, looks like stuff from lower Nubia.


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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
It's that boring huh?
That's not the problem per se. It's the Arabic names. They are long, they are complicated, and still they all sound the same for me. I am not the biggest fan of Islamic studies, because for me, every Islamic culture from Morocco to Persia feels the same. Of course I am not saying thats how it is in reality, but all I see are Mohammeds and Abdullahs and Qasr's no matter where I look in the Islamic world. With Islamization, the Sudan had lost a huge amount of its distinctive culture and became part of the Arabic blob.

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Does it really prove that Soba wasn't the capital of the early Funj kingdom?

At the time Reubeni visited Sennar, its ruler was already Muslim. But if it started out as a Christian kingdom as Jay Spaulding suggests, then there were earlier rulers. Couldn't the earlier Christian rulers have used Soba as their capital, before its ruin? Or is there some other known capital used by the Christian rulers who preceded the first Muslim king?
That the Funj were Christian is merely a theory, afaik based on Abdallah oral traditions which claimed Amara Dunqas, the first attested Funj king, was initially Christian. However, as we know thanks to Reubeni, he was Muslim when he arrived in Sennar in 1523.
And the Abdallab traditions, the Funj-chronicles and the "Tarikh wa usul al-‘Arab bi-s-Sudan" all agree that Soba had been the capital of Alodia until the very end. Funj pottery, which would attest a Funj presence in Soba without any doubt, was only rarely found. Soba itself was in a continous decline since the 12th century.

Edit: Btw, if you want to ask me anything else concerning Alodian history, culture, sources or what else just go ahead. Would be glad to use this thread for that type of discussions as well.

Last edited by Swagganaut; November 4th, 2016 at 11:04 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2016, 02:27 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by Swagganaut View Post
Sorry for the late reply, my lethargy often prevents me from doing stuff as quickly as I initially planed to.
It's no problem. Actually, I'm the last person you'd have to apologize about that to, since my case is much worse - there were some topics on here that I meant to respond to months ago that I've left alone because I had to prioritize other things and get stuff done in real life, but also because I'm not that good at responding in a quick manner either.


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Thank you for your effort. Sadly, it didn't brought any new insights for me, but that was expected due to the paper already beeing kinda dated. What might help me are theories based on this and that aspect of Alodian culture, beeing it by mere speculation or by the study of Islamic / Funj sources or oral traditions.
I didn't think it would be very helpful either since it was such an old paper and you are obviously familiar with modern, up-to-date studies.

If I find any much more recent sources with information and theories about Alodian culture that you haven't already mentioned I'll return to the thread and post it.


Quote:
That's not the problem per se. It's the Arabic names. They are long, they are complicated, and still they all sound the same for me. I am not the biggest fan of Islamic studies, because for me, every Islamic culture from Morocco to Persia feels the same. Of course I am not saying thats how it is in reality, but all I see are Mohammeds and Abdullahs and Qasr's no matter where I look in the Islamic world.
Okay, I understand now. I know exactly what you mean, and I had the same sort of feeling at first, but as I began to study the individual cultures and kingdoms more I began to appreciate the distinctiveness and the unique aspects of those states as well.

Quote:
With Islamization, the Sudan had lost a huge amount of its distinctive culture and became part of the Arabic blob.
I partially agree with this and partially disagree. . .I might go into more detail later, but it's late and I can't write any really lengthy posts right now. What I will say is that I often enjoy learning about some of the non-Islamic states in Africa because they seem more unique and culturally distinct from each other when compared to many of the Islamic states. But I have still seen lots of clear evidence that Muslims from different cultural areas in Africa had and still have distinct/unique cultures from one another and definitely have different and distinct cultural practices from Muslims on other continents. It is just that many of the non-Muslim cultural groups seem more culturally distinct/unique to me - both from one another and obviously from Muslims (or Christians) on other continents.

Interestingly, the editors of the book The History of Islam in Africa (2000), make the claim in the preface of the book that Islam actually "energized, enlivened, and animated life in African communities, and at the same time Islam has been molded by its African settings." Though I own it, I have repeatedly failed to actually sit down and read the book in full (though I have read a few parts), so I have not seen whether the information in the book proves the first part of that statement true (that the religion "energized, enlivened, and animated life" for African Muslim communities), but it does not by any means seem like a bizarre viewpoint to take to me. If that claim is broadly true, then there were also some positive sides to the moderate (or, perhaps in your view, huge) decrease in cultural distinctiveness.


Quote:
That the Funj were Christian is merely a theory, afaik based on Abdallah oral traditions which claimed Amara Dunqas, the first attested Funj king, was initially Christian. However, as we know thanks to Reubeni, he was Muslim when he arrived in Sennar in 1523.
And the Abdallab traditions, the Funj-chronicles and the "Tarikh wa usul al-‘Arab bi-s-Sudan" all agree that Soba had been the capital of Alodia until the very end. Funj pottery, which would attest a Funj presence in Soba without any doubt, was only rarely found. Soba itself was in a continous decline since the 12th century.


I see.

Quote:
Edit: Btw, if you want to ask me anything else concerning Alodian history, culture, sources or what else just go ahead. Would be glad to use this thread for that type of discussions as well.
Sure, thanks. If I have any further questions, I'll come back to the thread to post them.

Last edited by Ighayere; November 8th, 2016 at 02:47 AM.
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Old November 9th, 2016, 07:42 AM   #14

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It's no problem. Actually, I'm the last person you'd have to apologize about that to, since my case is much worse - there were some topics on here that I meant to respond to months ago that I've left alone because I had to prioritize other things and get stuff done in real life, but also because I'm not that good at responding in a quick manner either.
Well, real life has a higher priority than writing stuff in an online forum. For the rest I can only say: Better taking time with the reply and reading the previous post than just rushing it and write something which doesn't even address the whole content of the previous post appropriately.

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If I find any much more recent sources with information and theories about Alodian culture that you haven't already mentioned I'll return to the thread and post it.
Here are a couple of more recent sources I am still looking to get in my hands:

1) Caroline Cartwright: "Reconstructing the Woody Resources of the Medieval Kingdom of Alwa, Sudan" in "The Exploitation of Plant Resources in Ancient Africa", 1999
2) Derek Welsby: "The medieval Kingdom of Alwa" in "Der Sudan in Vergangenheit und Gegenwart" ("The Sudan in past and present"), 1996
3) Derek Welsby: "The Kingdom of Alwa" in "The Fourth Cataract and Beyond", 2014
4) T. Hägg: "Greek in Upper Nubia. An assessment of the New Material" in "Actes de la VIII conference internationale des etudes nubiennes", 1998

I think I will ask Mr. Welsby if he can send me his papers. He was already very cooperative and allowed me to use material from his excavation reports of Soba.

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
I partially agree with this and partially disagree. . .I might go into more detail later, but it's late and I can't write any really lengthy posts right now. What I will say is that I often enjoy learning about some of the non-Islamic states in Africa because they seem more unique and culturally distinct from each other when compared to many of the Islamic states. But I have still seen lots of clear evidence that Muslims from different cultural areas in Africa had and still have distinct/unique cultures from one another and definitely have different and distinct cultural practices from Muslims on other continents. It is just that many of the non-Muslim cultural groups seem more culturally distinct/unique to me - both from one another and obviously from Muslims (or Christians) on other continents.
When I referred to "Sudan" I actually meant the modern country Sudan, not the Bilad al-Sudan. I think the situation there was quite different than from the Islamic Kingdoms of the western Bilad al-Sudan, mostly because there was a steady influx of Arabian migrants from around the 12th century onwards. These either mixed with the local Nubians and created entire new people with an Arabic identity or promoted Nubians to claim Arabian heritage right of the bat, a process which was finished somewhere between the 18th and 19th century (If one leaves out the small bastions between Assuan and Dongola which exist until today).
This phenome, apparently called "Claiming Sharifian descent", was very prominent across the whole Islamic world, and also occurred for example in Kanem, where the kings claimed Yemenite origin. However, the impact of Arabization wasn't nearly as dramatic there, since actual Arabs were still absent, at least until more recent times. Then Arabized blacks started to penetrate into the Lake Chad area, coming from modern Sudan. They are currently replacing the Kotoko (One of the founders of the Sao civilization), for example.

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Originally Posted by Ighayere View Post
Interestingly, the editors of the book The History of Islam in Africa (2000), make the claim in the preface of the book that Islam actually "energized, enlivened, and animated life in African communities, and at the same time Islam has been molded by its African settings." Though I own it, I have repeatedly failed to actually sit down and read the book in full (though I have read a few parts), so I have not seen whether the information in the book proves the first part of that statement true (that the religion "energized, enlivened, and animated life" for African Muslim communities), but it does not by any means seem like a bizarre viewpoint to take to me. If that claim is broadly true, then there were also some positive sides to the moderate (or, perhaps in your view, huge) decrease in cultural distinctiveness.
Sure there were positive aspects. Especially the invention of the script and the whole rise of Timbuktu had an enormous positive influence on the region. West Africa greatly benefited by the spiritual influx from the Islamic world. Since Roman, Greek and Berber influence would have had only a small chance to spread there I think the Islamization of that region is the best that could have happened there.
And yeah, the Islam in the western Sudan was definitely unorthodox. I think approaches for a more fundamentalist Islam started only during the second half of the second millennium, but then developed rather drastically from Idris Aluma and the Sharia over the Fulani jihads and ultimately Boko Haram, although those examples really weren’t and aren’t the norm


Back to Alodia: I have randomly found three Muslim maps from the 12th and 13th century (Unesco African History):

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They might be of special value since it is still debated if Alodia was actually still independent from the 11th century onwards, or if it was part of Makuria.
I think in the next days I will present a small sneak peak of my paper.
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Old November 21st, 2016, 11:45 AM   #15

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Here is my promised sneak peak, which handles Alodian wall paintings. Keep in mind though that the final version will be different and shorter, since I wrote the presented part that way that it can stand on its own.


In Archeology only few things are more exciting than unearthing a building with well-preserved murals inside. Indeed, one could argue that the discovery of the breath-taking murals of Faras during the 1960’s truly gave birth to Medieval Nubian studies. When Lake Nasser flooded everything that had once been the northern half of the Nobadian Kingdom the attention shifted to the Makurian capital Dongola. Just as in the former Nobadian capital, dozens and dozens of sometimes better, sometimes worse preserved murals were and still are unearthed [1]. A similar tradition of decorating the interior of churches and other certain buildings of importance must have existed in the southernmost Nubian Kingdom of Alodia, especially in its capital Soba as well. Sadly, the archaeological situation is a different, worse one than in the north. We not only face a higher rainfall but also the fact that Soba, still the only properly excavated Alodian city, was already in a ruinous condition when David Reubeni passed it in 1523 [2], and what was left of these ruins was plundered when Khartoum was founded right after the Turkish invasion of the Sudan in 1821 [3]. All major buildings made of burned mudbricks must have been affected by that robbery, including the churches. The only thing that was left of the buildings unearthed so far were their floors, while most bricks which were not robbed were arranged in rubbles [4]. A situation which makes rather pessimistic to discover any traces of Alodian wall paintings, but we are kind of lucky. The first to discover actual painted plaster was Shinnie when he excavated the site between 1950 - 1952, but sadly he didn’t document them since they were “too fragmentary for the design to be made out” [5]. It took the more extensive and professional excavations conducted by the “British Institute in Eastern Africa” 30 years later for the first Alodian wall paintings to be recorded and published. Between 1981 and 1983, around one square meter of painted plaster had been preserved, mostly associated with Building D of the remarkable mound B complex, while a few others are associated with another building in Soba [6] (See Pl. 1). The Mound B complex consists of three extraordinary large churches (Building A-C) and the mentioned Building D. Due to its large dimensions it must have been a building of remarkable importance. Derek Welsby ascribes it a "palatial or official character" and suggests that this building was the seat of the bishop of Soba, or maybe even the residence of the king of Alodia himself [7]. To truly determine its original purpose one would need to unearth the entire city, but interestingly enough, the throne hall of Dongola also contained diverse mural paintings.
Nevertheless, let us now take a look on the paintings of Soba, or what remained of them (Pl. 2).
As already said above, they make up around one square meter in total, divided into 58 fragments of different size. David Edwards divided them into five categories, where the first four categories are from Building D while the ones of category IV derived from another building outside the Mound B complex, numbering only six fragments in total.
The fragments are categorized via the designs, the colour used for their decorations and the colour of the plaster. Therefore, each group was once part of a specific scene. However, not one fragment can clearly be attributed to a certain scene. Edwards suggested that the fragments categorized to group I (See Pl. 2, first row), which consist of "well-defined" red lines on yellow background, might have been part of a robe or elaborated vestment. Another option might be the wing of an angel. For both suggestions he hints to similar patterns with the same colours being used in Faras. By comparing them to a methodology developed again for the Faras murals, he attributes category V a dating from between the late 10th and early 11th century [8]. These dates might fit perfectly if we consider that the highday of Alodia was between the time of the 9th and 12th century, so it is plausible to assume that this was also the golden era of mural painting. All in all, the painted plasters of Soba, though already quite worn, are of fine quality [9], even if it's noteworthy that the plasters are barely 1 mm thick [10].

Since we don't know what the fragments once depicted it might be reasonable to look on other sources: Welsby speculates that the pottery painters of Soba took their inspiration from the local wall paintings (See Pl. 3) [11]. The pottery decorations might indeed be a good base for getting an idea of the look of the Alodian style. Let us take a look on the faces, for example: One can clearly see that they are painted white, surrounded by a halo. Just as in Makuria, where holy men like warrior saints also have white faces. Another thing is interesting: The overproportional eyes. Back then, Georg Gerster suggested an Ethiopian influence in Alodian culture [12], and these enormous eyes have a certain parallel to local Ethiopian paintings. One generally ascribes Ethiopian wall paintings a "naive" style, and the large eyes are an important part of it. The recent discovery of the wall paintings of Yemrehana Krestos, dated to the 12th century, attest that this "naive" art style already existed when Alodia was still in its golden age, even though a direct Coptic influence is still visible [13]. Murals from the Gennete Mariam church in Lalibela, which barely post-dates Yemrehane Krestos, bear even more resemblance to the faces of the Soba pottery [14]. However, we should of course be cautious to not overstretch our interpretations based on a hand full of pottery fragments. To know if the Alodians practiced an art style similiar to the northern Nubians, or if it was more Ethiopian, maybe a mix of both or even more or less indigenous, we would need to know better preserved painted plasters.

How high are our chances now to discover churches and monasteries with at least partial intact wall paintings? Although only a tiny amount of Soba, roughly 1% [15], is unearthed so far, the situation doesn’t seem to be that great there. With luck one might find a larger fragment of a painting, like a hand or a face, for example. Maybe there is also one still intact tomb which might keep a surprise. Be it as it may, to truly increase the chance to find an intact building with wall paintings one should move further north, where the environment offers possibilities similar to Faras and Dongola: Lots of sand, barely any rainfall and at best far away from the next village or city, abandoned after the fall of Christianity and not to be touched again. The arid steppe of the northern Butana with its flying sand might be an ideal place to look at. One must however also count with places far away from the former Alodian heartland, like Kordofan and Darfur. As far as we know, Christianity has barely left any archaeological traces in that region [16], but ethnographical research has proven how pseudo-Christian practices were very alive in that region well until the 19th and 20th century [17]. Such strong Christian influences must have originated from considerable outposts of the Christian faith, possibly cathedrals within the former provincial capital.


Pl. 1:
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Pl. 2:
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Pl. 3
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Notes:
[1] = For an overview over the finest Faras murals see Wilfried Spiepel's "Faras. Die Kathedrale aus dem Wüstensand. Christliche Fresken aus Nubien", 2002. The majority of all known Dongolese murals are published in Dobrochna Zielinska's "The Wall Paintings from the Monastery on Kom H in Dongola", 2011
[2] = The whole account of Rubeni can be found here: Welcome To Medieval Nubia - David Reubeni
[3] = For the original account by C. R. Lepsius see Shinnie 1961, p. 82-32
[4] = Edwards 1991, p. 259
[5] = Shinnie 1961, p. 60
[6] = Edwards 1991, p. 259
[7] = Welsby, p. 318
[8] = Edwards 1991, p. 259-261
[9] = Welsby 1991, p. 334
[10] = Welsby 2002, p. 174
[11] = Welsby 1991, p. 334
[12] = Edwards 1991, p. 26
[13] = Girmah 2001, fig. 8 & 9
[14] = See Raunig 2005, Pl. 71-73
[15] = Welsby 1998, p. 21
[16] = McGregor 2001, p. 139
[17] = Werner 2013, p. 181-184

Plates:
Pl. 1 = Welsby 2003, fig. 2
Pl. 2 = Edwards 1991, fig. 148, 149 & 150
Pl. 3 = Welsby 2003, fig. 1

Literature:
- Andrew James McGregor,, 2001: „Darfur (Sudan) in the Age of Stone Architecture c. AD 1000 – 1750. Problem in historical reconstruction”. Oxford, Archaeopress.
- David Edwards, 1991 "The painted wall plaster" in D. A. Welsby & C.M. Daniels "Soba. Archaeological Research at a Medieval Capital on the Blue Nile", p. 359-354, The British Institute in Eastern Africa, London.
- D. A. Welsby & C.M. Daniels, 1991: "Soba. Archaeological Research at a Medieval Capital on the Blue Nile", The British Institute in Eastern Africa, London
- D. A. Welsby, 1998 "Soba II. Renewed excavations within the metropolis of the Kingdom of Alwa in Central Sudan", The British Institute in Eastern Africa, London.
- D. A. Welsby, 2002 "The Medieval Kingdoms of Nubia: Pagans, Christians and Muslims Along the Middle Nile", British Museum Press, London.
- D. A. Welsby, 2003 „Soba-Ost“ in „MittSAG“, p. 93 - 96, Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, Berlin.
- Elias Girmaa, 2001 "Peintures murales du XIIe siècle découvertes dans l'église Yemrehana Krestos en Éthiopie" in "Comptes rendus des séances de l'Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres", ONLINE LINK
- P.L. Shinnie, 1961: "Excavations at Soba", Commissioner for Archaeology, Khartoum.
- Roland Werner, 2003: "Das Christentum in Nubien. Gestalt und Geschichte einer afrikanischen Kirche", Lit, Berlin.
- Walter Raunig, 2005: „Das christliche Äthiopien. Geschichte – Architektur – Kunst“, Schnell & Steiner, Regensburg

Last edited by Swagganaut; November 21st, 2016 at 11:54 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2016, 06:26 PM   #16
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Very interesting!
I want to note that the monumental painting and usual consumer painting may differ markedly in art style.

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Old November 23rd, 2016, 11:54 AM   #17

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Very interesting!
I want to note that the monumental painting and usual consumer painting may differ markedly in art style.
Yes, I would actually expect the same. In fact, it would be rather surprising if the Alodian wall painters don't continue the essentially Byzantine-Coptic traditions of their northern cousins, at least within the large churches. However, parallels between the Alodian pottery and Zagwe and early Solomomic wall paintings are definitely existent:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Large eyes with large, black pupils, a complete absence of any facial details except of the eyebrows, thin lips.

Edit: The murals are from Gennete Mariam, which date, if I am right, to the 13th century.

Last edited by Swagganaut; November 23rd, 2016 at 12:04 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 07:12 PM   #18
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Large eyes with large, black pupils, a complete absence of any facial details except of the eyebrows, thin lips.

Edit: The murals are from Gennete Mariam, which date, if I am right, to the 13th century.
Tha similar (but somewhat different) style in this Ethiopian Gospel of XIII cent.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; November 23rd, 2016 at 07:16 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2016, 09:58 AM   #19

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Damn, this thread goes wild.
Have a look at this

Das christliche Nubien - Geschichtsforum.de - Forum für Geschichte
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Old November 24th, 2016, 10:56 AM   #20

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Guess who made that thread
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