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Old December 5th, 2016, 01:33 AM   #1
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Relation: Pasha regimes and Middle East nowadays


Do you think that the current situation in the Middle East can be traced back to the Pasha regimes?
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Old December 5th, 2016, 06:50 AM   #2

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The current situation, lay down on the backwardness of the ottoman turks, as they didn't bring any worth mentioning progress with them in their 500 hundred rule.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 07:52 AM   #3

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In my view, unfortunately the current situation in the middle east has very little to do with the Ottomans. If the Western Europeans had governed the region, the situation would still have been pretty much time same. As you could notice from AncientA's post, the thing is, a social-cultural-economic progress is not a thing outsiders bring. It must be established from inside. That's why when Turkey started to reform herself in Tanzimat era, the Arab regions were unable to follow the progress, because of the theological difficulties - you can still see this thing in the current situation. Nationalist Arabs seem to reject this entirely and blame the Ottomans instead. Just examine the history of printing press in the Muslim world and the current situation will make sense.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 04:22 PM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientA View Post
The current situation, lay down on the backwardness of the ottoman turks, as they didn't bring any worth mentioning progress with them in their 500 hundred rule.
For the first time, I agree with this Turk-hating historum-dweller here. Ottoman rule is what pretty much kept West Asia in middle ages in modern era. I mean you just can't blame anyone else. Entire region, especially Anatolia, is ruled by Turks.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 07:51 PM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TURK View Post
In my view, unfortunately the current situation in the middle east has very little to do with the Ottomans. If the Western Europeans had governed the region, the situation would still have been pretty much time same. As you could notice from AncientA's post, the thing is, a social-cultural-economic progress is not a thing outsiders bring. It must be established from inside. That's why when Turkey started to reform herself in Tanzimat era, the Arab regions were unable to follow the progress, because of the theological difficulties - you can still see this thing in the current situation. Nationalist Arabs seem to reject this entirely and blame the Ottomans instead. Just examine the history of printing press in the Muslim world and the current situation will make sense.
Well, i remember that you agreed with me in this specific subject, didn't you? Or do I need to quote?
The only problem was, you have a different opinion in that matter, about the late ottoman rule - Tanzimat era.
as they've tried and succed, IYO.
Which again you seem to forget, Tanzimat was not a full scale reform of the empire in anyway possible as you try to imply, it was driven by nationalistic ideology and only limited in small area in northern Anatolia.
despite their turkification policies, and their great talent of milking the region and send it back Home(Istanbul), nothing else the ottomans offered really.

Indeed social-cultural-economic progress come from inside, but you shouldn't underestimat the state power of changing things for better or worse.
And there are many examples in history, Roman - Egypt (they've tried to gain independence in many occasions but the Romans couldn't make that happens)
Umayyad - Persia, actually persia was still undeveloped in the Abbasid period as well, compared to other parts of the world.

So we see the state hold so much power to determine the future, especially if you take in consideration the ethnic differences in the empire, as they wouldn't care for the "others", what they care is about what they get.

Last edited by AncientA; December 5th, 2016 at 07:55 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 08:08 PM   #6

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Originally Posted by turing View Post
For the first time, I agree with this Turk-hating historum-dweller here. Ottoman rule is what pretty much kept West Asia in middle ages in modern era. I mean you just can't blame anyone else. Entire region, especially Anatolia, is ruled by Turks.
I've been inactive lately, most of my posts are in my architecture and ancient threads and some posts here and there
nor am i Turk hater
and don't let your ego stay in the way of calling things as what it is.
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Old December 5th, 2016, 09:44 PM   #7

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The ottoman backwardness against europe began only at 19th century. Even during the peak times of ottomans the middle eastern area (expecially hejaz, and area below Jerusalem) had been nothing but a burden for ottoman empire. It had no value other than spiritual (mecca medina only),oil was not discovered and its peopple were highly restless. Baghdad/today's israel and few cities in syria(damascus) was quite active and relatively wealthy, infact baghdad and jerusalem was amongts the overall most crucial cities of the whole empire (others would be istanbul,thesaloniky,cairo and belgrade).

middle east's backwardness is related to their own strife post-WW1 more than anything, and the area (except saudi arabia) was more advanced 50 years ago than today.
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