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Old January 31st, 2017, 04:18 AM   #31

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This is what went wrong, but democracy itself isn't what went wrong; instead, it's corruptible government agendas, as opposed to a genuine interest in doing what right. In doing what's right, we need advisors or administrators whom understand the ethical obligations behind our decisions.
What really matters are practical considerations. In theory, the neocons were "ethical," believing that democracy should replace Saddam and his "dangerous tyranny." The invasion wasn't about oil--had the government wanted that, all it had to do was allow Iraq to export more of it. The invasion was about propagating American values. However misguided the scheme really was--as I and certain academics knew-- it had the backing of the dopey masses, who returned shrub to the White House in 2004. Democracy was at the heart of the problem. The masses, and the basic value/governmental system, must bear ultimate responsibility for the whole disastrous mess.


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It involves a screwed up agenda that placed our self absorbed interests above the people who might suffer the consequences.
In fact the neocons behind the invasion of Iraq, notably Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle--were jews primarily concerned with Israel, not US interests.. The idea was to overrun Iraq and democratize it in the looney belief democracy would spread throughout the arab world, effectively taming it and making Israel safer.
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Old January 31st, 2017, 04:30 AM   #32

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Fall of Saddam was good for Arab Shias and Kurds who together constituted 80% of the population. The violence that followed in Iraq in the aftermath was because Iraqi Sunnis again wanted to reinstate their rule in Iraq which they had enjoyed during Saddam's regime.

Last edited by Devdas; January 31st, 2017 at 05:19 AM.
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Old January 31st, 2017, 05:09 AM   #33

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The violence that followed in Iraq in the aftermath was because Iraqi Sunnis again wanted to reinstate their rule in Iraq which they had enjoyed during Saddam's regime.
The shiites were unreasonable to exclude all former baathists, driving them into the arms of ISIS. It was inevitable that one group would want to monopolize power, and that situation already existed under Saddam.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #34

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Problems of the Middle East?

1. All the countries were artificially created by European colonial powers in the early 20th century, without regard to the people who live there. See Iraq, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan and Pakistan. All of them paragons of successful nation building... not.

2. The Saudi Wahhabist ideology. Funded by the petro dollar, Saudi religious extremists spread an extreme ideology around the globe. The results in ruined lives are a human tragedy. And guess who helped the house of Saud into power? The British. Look it up. Thanks, western powers...

3. The US-backed coup which overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in the 1950s. Yet another disastrous western intervention, which messed up Iran by installing the authoritarian Shah, leading to the 1979 Islamic revolution.

4. Israel. Created by the western occupying powers in the early 20th century. This state was created by massacre and forced eviction of the people living there, and followed up with two wars which inflicted further misery. The ongoing occupation, constant oppression, illegal wall, confiscation of lands, military checkpoints, murder of civilians, detention, arrest, torture and construction of settlements on Palestinian land is an intolerable ongoing crime against humanity. Once again, thanks western powers...

5. The invasion of Iraq in 2003. Destroying the country, killing millions of people and then replacing it with a criminally incompetent administration, turning a beautiful country of culture and poetry into a horrific wasteland of slaughter and hell. Thanks again, western countries... and while we're at it, thank you for selling Saddam chemical weapons in the 1980s and then using those weapons as an excuse to invade in 2003. Yeah, real smooth... thanks guys.

6. ISIS. This evolved straight out of point 5. Thanks again, western guys. You really did a good job. Not.

7. Aside from all these, there are problems that go back deeper. The unification of the area under the Ottoman and Safavid Empires from the 15th century onwards probably worked against innovation during the period of industrialisation, which was in any case invented in north Europe. This left the region economically behind.

8. After a brilliant start in the Golden Age up to about c.1100, the Middle East gradually began to turn away from progress after the ulemma became dominant, the first signs starting in the 12th century but really gaining ground after the Mongol invasions after 1230 or so. Al Ghazali's book attacking the incoherence of philosophers was a key moment. Perhaps the Mutazila movement was partly to blame, and particularly the caliph al Mamun, whose persecutions cost the movement its popular support. It took centuries for the consequences to feed through though.

9. The Mongol invasions. These devastated Persia and Iraq and ripped the heart out of the Muslim world in the 13th century. The great cities of Khorasan and also Baghdad had been centres of learning and culture. Their destruction and the massacre of the population, combined with the reversion to nomadism and the destruction of books and urban centres set back the progress of civilisation by centuries. It is possible to argue that the Muslim world never really recovered. Particularly since they were hit again in the 15th century by Tamerlane, bringing a new wave of devastation almost equal to the first.

10. The discovery of the new world disadvantaged the powers of the old world, who lacked access to the vast riches. Enormous inflation set in, destroying the economic basis of society. This undermined the Ottomans and Safavids, while benefiting Europe

That will do for now.

Last edited by SufiMystic; February 12th, 2017 at 07:04 PM.
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Old February 19th, 2017, 10:20 AM   #35

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Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
4. Israel. Created by the western occupying powers in the early 20th century.
Under pressure from zionists who were the real driving force behind its creation.

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This state was created by massacre and forced eviction of the people living there, and followed up with two wars which inflicted further misery. The ongoing occupation, constant oppression, illegal wall, confiscation of lands, military checkpoints, murder of civilians, detention, arrest, torture and construction of settlements on Palestinian land is an intolerable ongoing crime against humanity. Once again, thanks western powers...
Only one western power, the US, is really to blame and that's due to its internal politics, heavily influenced by pro-Israel groups.

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The invasion of Iraq in 2003. Destroying the country, killing millions of people
Even before the invasion, sanctions caused enormous hardship and death.

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and while we're at it, thank you for selling Saddam chemical weapons in the 1980s and then using those weapons as an excuse to invade in 2003. Yeah, real smooth... thanks guys.
Saddam had his own CW production, and nobody forced him to use CW. But it was hypocritical, to say the least, to turn a blind eye to then 1988 gassing of Kurds and then point to it as a reason for war.

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ISIS. This evolved straight out of point 5. Thanks again, western guys.
Agree it stemmed from 5. The real culprits behind the 2003 attack, however, were the pro-Israel neocons here.
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Old February 27th, 2017, 10:55 PM   #36
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The problems of the Arab Middle East are in large measure (not exclusively) due to the failure of various modernisation movements and the strength of extremely reactionary movements.
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Old February 27th, 2017, 11:36 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
Problems of the Middle East?

1. All the countries were artificially created by European colonial powers in the early 20th century, without regard to the people who live there. See Iraq, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan and Pakistan. All of them paragons of successful nation building... not.

2. The Saudi Wahhabist ideology. Funded by the petro dollar, Saudi religious extremists spread an extreme ideology around the globe. The results in ruined lives are a human tragedy. And guess who helped the house of Saud into power? The British. Look it up. Thanks, western powers...

3. The US-backed coup which overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran in the 1950s. Yet another disastrous western intervention, which messed up Iran by installing the authoritarian Shah, leading to the 1979 Islamic revolution.

4. Israel. Created by the western occupying powers in the early 20th century. This state was created by massacre and forced eviction of the people living there, and followed up with two wars which inflicted further misery. The ongoing occupation, constant oppression, illegal wall, confiscation of lands, military checkpoints, murder of civilians, detention, arrest, torture and construction of settlements on Palestinian land is an intolerable ongoing crime against humanity. Once again, thanks western powers...

5. The invasion of Iraq in 2003. Destroying the country, killing millions of people and then replacing it with a criminally incompetent administration, turning a beautiful country of culture and poetry into a horrific wasteland of slaughter and hell. Thanks again, western countries... and while we're at it, thank you for selling Saddam chemical weapons in the 1980s and then using those weapons as an excuse to invade in 2003. Yeah, real smooth... thanks guys.

6. ISIS. This evolved straight out of point 5. Thanks again, western guys. You really did a good job. Not.

7. Aside from all these, there are problems that go back deeper. The unification of the area under the Ottoman and Safavid Empires from the 15th century onwards probably worked against innovation during the period of industrialisation, which was in any case invented in north Europe. This left the region economically behind.

8. After a brilliant start in the Golden Age up to about c.1100, the Middle East gradually began to turn away from progress after the ulemma became dominant, the first signs starting in the 12th century but really gaining ground after the Mongol invasions after 1230 or so. Al Ghazali's book attacking the incoherence of philosophers was a key moment. Perhaps the Mutazila movement was partly to blame, and particularly the caliph al Mamun, whose persecutions cost the movement its popular support. It took centuries for the consequences to feed through though.

9. The Mongol invasions. These devastated Persia and Iraq and ripped the heart out of the Muslim world in the 13th century. The great cities of Khorasan and also Baghdad had been centres of learning and culture. Their destruction and the massacre of the population, combined with the reversion to nomadism and the destruction of books and urban centres set back the progress of civilisation by centuries. It is possible to argue that the Muslim world never really recovered. Particularly since they were hit again in the 15th century by Tamerlane, bringing a new wave of devastation almost equal to the first.

10. The discovery of the new world disadvantaged the powers of the old world, who lacked access to the vast riches. Enormous inflation set in, destroying the economic basis of society. This undermined the Ottomans and Safavids, while benefiting Europe

That will do for now.
I agree with most of the thing that you wrote, except points 4, and 5. First invasion of Iraq, was legitimate action. That was was started not by "Western Powers", but by Iraq. Iraq invaded Kuwait, results were easy to guess.

On Israel, it was created by Western Powers, but something similar would have happened without them. There never was such state as Palestine and Jews were returning before Western intervention. Clash between Palestinians and Jews was inevitable.
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Old February 27th, 2017, 11:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
1. All the countries were artificially created by European colonial powers in the early 20th century, without regard to the people who live there. See Iraq, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Afghanistan and Pakistan. All of them paragons of successful nation building... not.
This is simply not true. Saudi Arabia wasn't created by the Western powers, nor was Egypt, nor was Yemen, nor was Oman, ... Israel wasn't created in the early 20th century but in 1948 and Palestine isn't a state. As for Afghanistan and Pakistan, by what sort of geography are they part of the Middle East, much less of the Arab World?
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Old February 27th, 2017, 11:58 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post

2. The Saudi Wahhabist ideology. Funded by the petro dollar, Saudi religious extremists spread an extreme ideology around the globe. The results in ruined lives are a human tragedy. And guess who helped the house of Saud into power? The British. Look it up. Thanks, western powers...
The Saudi's do play a major negative role. You need to look up history however. Then you will learn that the Saudi's came to power in the Arabian peninsula AGAINST the British and by driving the British-supported Hashemites out of the Hejaz.
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Old February 28th, 2017, 12:01 AM   #40
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5. The invasion of Iraq in 2003. Destroying the country, killing millions of people and then replacing it with a criminally incompetent administration, turning a beautiful country of culture and poetry into a horrific wasteland of slaughter and hell. Thanks again, western countries... and while we're at it, thank you for selling Saddam chemical weapons in the 1980s and then using those weapons as an excuse to invade in 2003. Yeah, real smooth... thanks guys.
Iraq was destroyed by the Baathists and Saddam Hussein. You seem to consider his megalomania and murderousness as "culture and poetry". As for the "millions" killed by the war in 2003, that is simply propaganda.
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