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Old April 14th, 2018, 08:49 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
.

The bottom line is other religious people(other then Muslims) have committed atrocious acts in the name of their religions. History means everything and even to this very day intolelant Israeli Jews and Saudi Muslims support blocking interfaith marriage among other views that stand against equality among man.
Do you really believe that saudis and israelis are in same level as far as intolerance is considered??

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Consider this. How do you feel when someone says Gay people rape more, well that is the same as how many Muslims feel when someone tries to say Muhammad was a pedophile.
Bad analogy,first you have to give statistical proof that gay people actually do rape more if that is something you can provide then we as society can see if there is any specific cause and make our society better.
Correct analogy to "gay people rape more" is "Muslims are more intolerant to gays" or "Most terrorist casualties are due to islamic terror attacks"
both of which are subject to statistical verification.
Muhammad as said by own records of islam and best scholars of islam was a pedophile
why do you think a person of 54 years will have sex to a person of 9 year???

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Again Turkey is proof that a Muslim majority country can make child marriage illegal. Knowing this, it would be offensive and it would be bullying for someone to casually say Islam supports pedophilia that is indeed the same as saying Judaism supports pedophilia because some Jewish men in the ancient times married younger women.
Yes turkey is a proof that muslims are good people despite their religion,it has nothing to do with what religion preaches.
Again "jewish men" doing crazy things is not same as judaism doing that thing,muhammad is islam,he is al insan al kamil,the perfect man,the man to be emulated by muslims till the judgement day,if he does something then that IS islam.

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Yes ISIL Muslim say the Quran approves of bad things... BUT other Muslims fight ISIL to the death, fighting for equality among man. In a similar manner Muslims in Saudi Arabia disagree with Saudis intolerant policies, and Jews in Israel disagree with Israels intolerant policies. Both Israel and Saudi and many other Muslim majority countries disallow interfaith marriage.
How do you know which muslim is right about islam??
this is not about muslims,it is about islam.

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Just consider the many great and tolerate Muslims of the world when disagreeing that its ok to compare to view that Muhammad was a pedophile to the view that Jews killed Christian children for matzo. Because here is the issue, just as hate filled Muslims and Christians of today lambast gay people, some anti Muslims lambast Islam because of their views of Muhammad someone whom lived 1400 years ago in a time when the family life was different as it was indeed different in Jewish societies in the ancient ages.
None of the christians are suppose to be perfect people,right??
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Old April 15th, 2018, 02:36 AM   #152

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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
How do you feel when someone says Gay people rape more, well that is the same as how many Muslims feel when someone tries to say Muhammad was a pedophile.
These examples are not analogous. Saying "gay people" do something as a group is using a broad brush and talking about me specifically as part of that group. Saying that I think Muhammad probably harmed that little girl is about Muhammad only, not other Muslims.

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Originally Posted by JoanOfArc007 View Post
Just consider the many great and tolerate Muslims of the world when disagreeing that its ok to compare to view that Muhammad was a pedophile to the view that Jews killed Christian children for matzo.
This is also not analogous. Muhammad = one man. Jews = entire group.

Sorry but there's a world of difference. A religion or a religious figure should not be held as infallible merely because one wants to hold it/him in that regard. Further, I would note that I am not saying this out of some animosity toward Islam. Rather, I have conducted some investigation into the evidence and drawn a conclusion. I have previously stated my understanding of the evidence and no one has disagreed with it or asked me to consider other evidence. Hence, I am forced to conclude further that my understanding is correct and that Muslims generally accepted for some 1200 years that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9-years-old. If that is the case, it seems to me it's a little late to be revising history unless there is some evidence far more compelling than what I've seen presented so far.

Last edited by dreamregent; April 15th, 2018 at 02:43 AM.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 02:44 AM   #153

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In this world there are good people and there are bad people. And most of us somewhere in the middle.

This is not a function of religion. Though it may on accasion be used as a vehicle by such bad people.
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Old June 13th, 2018, 12:41 PM   #154

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Originally Posted by SufiMystic View Post
- something that simply did not exist in western societies at the time.
Nonsense. A simple visit at the smaller basement library at my university to deal with basic Spain's, South Italy’s, Crusaders’, and Byzantine history will easily show you how disillusioned your statement is.

Christian states did tolerate non-believers dependent the context, timeline and geography pretty much as the same way as the Muslim states did more or less.

Visigoth Spain may not be that tolerant one, but in the middle period Christian Spain was better than Muslim Almohad Spain. Because here for example Alfonso El Sabio among others allowed Muslims and Jews unlike the Muslim Almohads ones.

In South Italy around 1100 when the Normans established themselves over a Muslim minority they were also allowed to live under Christians with a reversed Jizya-system where Muslims paid extra to their Christian lords. Jews were also allowed to live. It was first in 1300 or so that the last Muslims were expelled. Even during Frederic II’s reign in 1200s one can read that Muslims were tolerated, and he even persuaded Sultan al-Kamil to handle him Jerusalem without any bloodshed. And when the Normans conquered Ifriqiya(Tunesia), Muslims were also tolerated to live until it all ended when the Almohads came with their intolerance. (“The Muslims of Medieval Italy” by Alex Metcalfe. p. 101-170.)

In France the Jews were also allowed to live under Frankish rule because they were important in economic term. (“Charlemagne's Early Campaigns (768-777)” by Bernard Bachrach. p. 113).

Actually even a couple of Muslim leaders in Spain sought help from Christian Charlemagne as they did not wanted to submit to Muslim Abd al-Rahman I, and rather preferred to submit under Charlemagne’s rule. (“Charlemagne's Early Campaigns (768-777)” by Bernard Bachrach. p. 629).

When Constantine the Great became the first Christian emperors he decreed religious toleration. That was better than what Muhammad did, because Muhammad ordered expulsion of all non-Muslims. When Thedodsius I came he ordered restriction/ban on Paganism, but he tolerated Jews at least. That was (also) better than what Muhammad did.

Byzantine Empire was pretty much the tolerant one by the way when looking at the various Christian and Muslim states. Because Byzantines pretty much allowed Pagans, Jews and Muslims. Justinian made restrictions for Jews, but they were at least still tolerated. Justinian even appointed Tribonian, a Pagan, as the chief jurist when making Corpus Juris Civilis. According to Constantine Vii’s “De Administrando Imperio” anybody can read that Pagans even lived during the reign of Basil the Macedonian in 860s. When Ibn Battuta visited Constantinople in 1300s and spoke with the Byzantine emperor anybody can read that the translator of the emperor was Jew himself. Mosques existed in Constantinople already from 900 CE or so, and even during the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 some Muslims fought alongside Byzantines. An intolerant Byzantium would hardly do such things.

In crusader states Ibn Jubayr himself admitted that Muslims lived comfortable in Crusaders’ lands than they did under Muslim domination:

“Upon leaving Tibnīn (near Tyre), we passed through an unbroken skein of farms and villages whose lands were efficiently cultivated. The inhabitants were all Muslims, but they live in comfort with the Franj—may God preserve us from temptation! Their dwellings belong to them and all their property is unmolested. All the regions controlled by the Franj in Syria are subject to this same system: the landed domains, villages, and farms have remained in the hands of the Muslims. Now, doubt invests the heart of a great number of these men when they compare their lot to that of their brothers living in Muslim territory. Indeed, the latter suffer from the injustice of their coreligionists, whereas the Franj act with equity.” (Maalouf, Amin. 2012(e book edition). The Crusades Through Arab Eyes. Saqi Books. Under “Epilogue”)

Not even to mention that the Shia Fatimids asked help from Crusaders against the Sunni-seljuqs. Or when the Ottomans persecuted the Shia's and/or Alevis due to rivalry with the Safavids? Or when Safavids forced converted Sunnis and Christians as well? Or not to mention that even today the Sunni-Shia clash is still ongoing.

So no, western societies at the time surely did tolerate disbelievers more or less in the same ways as Muslims did dependent on what period or what geography one is dealing with. - In contrary to Muhammad, the superman of Islam, who stated that “there should be no two religions” in his land and acted accordingly.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 02:05 AM   #155

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Originally Posted by El Cid View Post

So no, western societies at the time surely did tolerate disbelievers more or less in the same ways as Muslims did dependent on what period or what geography one is dealing with. - In contrary to Muhammad, the superman of Islam, who stated that “there should be no two religions” in his land and acted accordingly.
Absolutely right Cid. Though there always has been prejudices between peoples - always will be - throughout most of the process today called Reconquista in Spain it didn't really matter that most of the new citizens were muslim. It was pressure of immigration over decades, even a couple of hundred years and then of course the activities of Cardinal Cisneros at the end of Isobel's reign - and onward to Limpieza de Sangre - which made muslims persona non grata
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Old June 14th, 2018, 02:38 AM   #156

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Originally Posted by darkpearl1945 View Post
Did the arabs use force to force any people to convert to Islam? Does the persians have been allowed to continue to believe in zoroastrianism? If so, why did so many zoroastrianism worshippers leave Persia and become the other peoples of central Asia?
Most of the times they gived two choice :



Convert or Die

Convert or be Slave ( Dhimmi) .


A typical sample is what happened in Otranto.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 06:56 AM   #157

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That is certainly not true.

Zarathustrians may have received a harsh treatment since they were not part of the Abrahamic religions, and some/many parts of Afghanistan and North India have experienced forced conversions when Muslims saw Pagans pretty much as in Central Europe when Christians saw Pagans. But when ruling over Abrahamic religionists, things may be something else. I think it is pretty obvious once consulting academic works on Spanish, Frankish, (south)Italy, Crusader, Byzantine, Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasids, Ottoman and Safavids, that the picture tends to be very clear: Both Christian and Muslim states did tolerate non-believers depending the context, timeline and geography. Jews may have (slightly) better condition in Islamic states since Muhammad was not crucified due to three pharisees priests, but otherwise the conditions were pretty much the same.

The Battle Of Otranto seems to be a battle. Obviously forced conversion or enslavement may follow. It is pretty much like when the Crusaders won Jerusalem in 1099 that also entailed bloodshed, just as it did when Arabs and Seljuks later(or before?) took it and sacked it. It tells nothing.

Last edited by El Cid; June 14th, 2018 at 07:03 AM.
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