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Old September 9th, 2017, 08:36 PM   #1

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Should we use the phrase "Nubio-Egyptian?"


We often use the phrase "Greco-Roman" as if the two civilizations were intrinsically connected, and of course, they were. Rome has other influences, such as the Etruscans, and climbed to much higher heights than Greece, but did so with a strong foundation of Greek philosophy, science, art and architecture. The Greeks had already paved the way for the success of the empire by defeating Persia and marching to India, and the language of the Roman empire was not Latin, but Koine, a form of Greek. When the Roman cycle was spent and the empire in the west collapsed, classical culture continued in the east under a thousand years of Greek emperors.

Can it be said that the Nubians were intertwined with Egypt in a similar fashion? Egypt also had other influences, such as the Merimde culture, but Egypt was united from the South and it was the Nubians who contributed the cattle culture, pottery, and most farming practices. Hieroglyphics and mastaba building come from the south, and it is possible that the Nubians contributed iconography. The Nubians served as good soldiers for the Egypians, and just as Rome had its Greek emperors, there was AT LEAST one Nubian dynasty.

What are some more of the similarities and differences in the two situations?

Last edited by cachibatches; September 9th, 2017 at 08:40 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #2

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There are definitely some long periods of ancient Egyptian history that could be termed that way. There were also some periods more influenced from outside of Egypt and while Rome during the Republic certainly gets called "Greco-Roman" I haven't heard it that much later on and I think that could well work similarly for Egypt.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:45 PM   #3

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Assyrio-Hittite, Semito-Japhetic, Semito-Hamitic, Akkado-Babylonian, Assyrio-Babylonian, Scytho-Cymmerian, Medo-Persian, Greco-Macedonian, Celto-Germanic, Franko-Scandinavian, Gaelo-Roman, Franko-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Turko-Mongol, Sino-Tibetan, Finno-Ugrian, Austro-Hungarian etc. etc. etc.

Yep, there're so many of those hybrid or cross-ply entities. Yeah, why not.

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Old September 10th, 2017, 05:57 PM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Assyrio-Hittite, Semito-Japhetic, Semito-Hamitic, Akkado-Babylonian, Assyrio-Babylonian, Scytho-Cymmerian, Medo-Persian, Greco-Macedonian, Celto-Germanic, Franko-Scandinavian, Gaelo-Roman, Franko-Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Turko-Mongol, Sino-Tibetan, Finno-Ugrian, Austro-Hungarian etc. etc. etc.

Yep, there're so many of those hybrid or cross-ply entities. Yeah, why not.
Anglo-American?

Seems like Nubian contributions to Egyptian history are often overlooked
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:06 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
We often use the phrase "Greco-Roman" as if the two civilizations were intrinsically connected, and of course, they were. Rome has other influences, such as the Etruscans, and climbed to much higher heights than Greece, but did so with a strong foundation of Greek philosophy, science, art and architecture. The Greeks had already paved the way for the success of the empire by defeating Persia and marching to India, and the language of the Roman empire was not Latin, but Koine, a form of Greek. When the Roman cycle was spent and the empire in the west collapsed, classical culture continued in the east under a thousand years of Greek emperors.

Can it be said that the Nubians were intertwined with Egypt in a similar fashion? Egypt also had other influences, such as the Merimde culture, but Egypt was united from the South and it was the Nubians who contributed the cattle culture, pottery, and most farming practices. Hieroglyphics and mastaba building come from the south, and it is possible that the Nubians contributed iconography. The Nubians served as good soldiers for the Egypians, and just as Rome had its Greek emperors, there was AT LEAST one Nubian dynasty.

What are some more of the similarities and differences in the two situations?
Evidence for cattle herding dates back about 10,000 years with the earliest evidence found in the Fayum, a long way North of Nubia. The use of the word "South" is rather disingenuous as it seems to imply a potentially Nubian origin. The terms Upper and Lower Egypt are more correct. So the "South" is Upper Egypt and that is in fact most of all of Egypt as it is Egypt from the first cataract to the Delta. I have never seen any evidence that "most" farming practices originated in Nubia, where is the evidence for this. There is nothing to suggest that agriculture came from anywhere except Mesopotamia.

And this,
Quote:
Egypt was united from the South
It was united from Upper Egypt, that is above the first cataract, not this vague "South". Thebes is a long way South of the Delta, but it is North of the first cataract, so to use this "South" in terms beyond the boundaries of all of Egypt needs explaining.


And again,
Quote:
Hieroglyphs and mastaba building come from the south
What is meant here by "South", Upper Egypt or Nubia, why is this important matter left vague. There are no prototypes of mastabas or hieroglyphs South of the first cataract. There is no convincingly firm evidence of anything specifically seen as Ancient Egyptian that can be shown to have originated South of the first cataract.

If this "Nubio-Egyptian" should be used because of the Medjay, then on that basis Rome should be "Romano-Germanic" due to many in the Praetorian guard being Germanic. And how, in all the thousands of years of Egyptian history, can one Nubian dynasty that lasted 93 years nearly at the end of the dynastic period, be an excuse to give them equal standing with the preceeding 24 dynasties as if they were equal partners all that time. They were not, they were first a foreign land and then a conquered land dominated by Egypt, not "partners".
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Old September 13th, 2017, 08:31 PM   #6
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I've been briefly reading the articles of some Egyptologists who also focus on Nubia and consider the 2 to have been intertwined in ancient times.

Kara Cooney also states that, though they can't be labeled black or white using modern terminology, that they were 'of color' so she said if ancient Egyptians were in the United States during Jim Crow, they would have been made to sit at the back of the bus, basically treated like Black people.

So I find it amazing that some current day Egyptologists are breaking away from the way the field used to be and are calling for Medieval studies to be more accurate regarding how ancient civilizations are portrayed
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 06:05 AM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvidius View Post
Evidence for cattle herding dates back about 10,000 years with the earliest evidence found in the Fayum, a long way North of Nubia. The use of the word "South" is rather disingenuous as it seems to imply a potentially Nubian origin. The terms Upper and Lower Egypt are more correct. So the "South" is Upper Egypt and that is in fact most of all of Egypt as it is Egypt from the first cataract to the Delta. I have never seen any evidence that "most" farming practices originated in Nubia, where is the evidence for this. There is nothing to suggest that agriculture came from anywhere except Mesopotamia.

And this,

It was united from Upper Egypt, that is above the first cataract, not this vague "South". Thebes is a long way South of the Delta, but it is North of the first cataract, so to use this "South" in terms beyond the boundaries of all of Egypt needs explaining.


And again,

What is meant here by "South", Upper Egypt or Nubia, why is this important matter left vague. There are no prototypes of mastabas or hieroglyphs South of the first cataract. There is no convincingly firm evidence of anything specifically seen as Ancient Egyptian that can be shown to have originated South of the first cataract.

If this "Nubio-Egyptian" should be used because of the Medjay, then on that basis Rome should be "Romano-Germanic" due to many in the Praetorian guard being Germanic. And how, in all the thousands of years of Egyptian history, can one Nubian dynasty that lasted 93 years nearly at the end of the dynastic period, be an excuse to give them equal standing with the preceeding 24 dynasties as if they were equal partners all that time. They were not, they were first a foreign land and then a conquered land dominated by Egypt, not "partners".

Quote:
Evidence for cattle herding dates back about 10,000 years with the earliest evidence found in the Fayum
In Egypt as a whole, the earliest evidence of cattle-herding does appear in the Nubian Desert in southern Egypt 1000 years earlier.


Quote:
The earliest (11,000-9300) settlements composed of seasonal camps of cattle-herding and ceramic-using people
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Quote:
It was united from Upper Egypt, that is above the first cataract, not this vague "South". Thebes is a long way South of the Delta, but it is North of the first cataract, so to use this "South" in terms beyond the boundaries of all of Egypt needs explaining.
That may be true but there actually is evidence for a contemporary Nubian group that coexisted with the Egyptians(A-group Nubians) and their presence relation with the Egyptians has been noted to even be around the first cataract

Quote:
It is more likely that the boundary zone between Egypt and Nubia should be interpreted
in a more nuanced manner; thus a sharp line somewhere at the First Cataract should not
be expected, but rather a larger, more fluid zone, which included not only the Nile Valley
but also the nearby deserts

Quote:
What is meant here by "South", Upper Egypt or Nubia, why is this important matter left vague. There are no prototypes of mastabas or hieroglyphs South of the first cataract. There is no convincingly firm evidence of anything specifically seen as Ancient Egyptian that can be shown to have originated South of the first cataract.
There are a few things in AE that had origins below the first cataract that most assume had their origins in Egypt like maths, astronomy etc


Quote:
They also suggest that the migration of these nomads north as the summer rains dried up about 4,800 years ago may have stimulated the development of complex cultures and degrees of social status in predynastic Upper Egypt. Within a few hundred years, the pharaoh Djoser built the first pyramid, the step monument at Saqqara.

Egyptologist Mark Lehner of Harvard University points out that other elements of the Nabta sites suggest connections with Egyptian patterns of thought. Malville and Wendorf had noted cattle tumuli and a sculptured stone "with some resemblance to a cow" at Nabta. "Cattle iconography was still extremely important to the pharaohs of the Old Kingdom," says Lehner. And, like several of the megalithic alignments and the solstitial window at Nabta, the temples at Abydos and the pyramids at Saqqara, Giza, and Abusir are arranged along roughly northeast-southwest lines
Neolithic Skywatchers - Archaeology Magazine Archive

Respectively, Lehner also said this so we don't jump to conclusion

Quote:
But Lehner urges caution in making a connection between Neolithic nomads and early Egyptian civilization: "It makes sense, but not in a facile, direct way--you can't go straight from these megaliths to the pyramid of Djoser."
So it can be said that there definitely were things that many would call "Egyptian in origin" that originated below the the first cataract, they were just brought north by people from below the first cataract that travelled north.


Quote:
If this "Nubio-Egyptian" should be used because of the Medjay, then on that basis Rome should be "Romano-Germanic" due to many in the Praetorian guard being Germanic. And how, in all the thousands of years of Egyptian history, can one Nubian dynasty that lasted 93 years nearly at the end of the dynastic period, be an excuse to give them equal standing with the preceeding 24 dynasties as if they were equal partners all that time. They were not, they were first a foreign land and then a conquered land dominated by Egypt, not "partners
The Nubian and Egyptian relationship predates the 25th dynasty, far beyond in fact and even goes all the way back into prehistory, and it can't not be said to be a colonialistic relationship

Quote:
At this stage in current knowledge, the Egyptians cannot be defined as colonists and the
Nubians as natives; neither can it be said that there was a new cultural entity, although
these ideas should be seriously considered. The most ancient evidence for Egyptians in
the First Cataract area is dated to Naqada IC, while the first two sub-stages of the Naqada
culture are missing here, as they are from the site of Naqada southward. At Hierakonpolis,
for example, the oldest occupation phase predates Naqada IC (Hoffman 1984), but the
cultural affiliation of the material is still unclear. This might be a matter of defining what
form the early Naqada I stage takes in the southern portion of Upper Egypt, at a time
when settlement material in particular is characterized by regional differentiation. Proving
a Nubian presence in the area prior to Naqada IC is also a difficult task, because in the
5th millennium BC both Tasian and Badarian cultures are strongly related to the Nubian
tradition. Thus it is difficult to determine whether a rippled sherd from the southern part
of Upper Egypt is Tasian, Badarian, early A-Group or something else entirely if it is not
located within a broader context
. In this respect, it should also be noted that some of
the undisturbed graves in the cemeteries of the First Cataract contained Nubian objects
datable to the Early A-Group phase, but lack any Egyptian artefacts. Because of this, H.S.
Smith (1991) felt that they might be older than Naqada IC. The point to be stressed is that
in the area defined as the First Cataract region––which may include the section of the
Nile Valley from Armant to Metardul, and probably even to Dakka, and the surrounding
deserts––not only is a Nubian component always present in the material culture (with
high variability in the percentages from north to south), but the material culture also
were mixed as far as their ethnic membership is concerned: the population consisted of both Egyptians and
Nubians.
The Egyptians were mainly officials and soldiers and thus male; the female component appears to
have been for the most part local and thus Nubian. The New Kingdom situation may seem very similar to that
of the Predynastic period, but this might not actually be the case. The communities Smith analysed were clearly
Egyptian or Nubian, and they adjusted their ethnic affiliation in a rather opportunistic way. In the Predynastic
period, the Egyptian and Nubian identities still shared many common traits derived from a common ancestry.
The Naqada culture developed from the Badarian culture which, as the Tasian, was related to the Nubian
Neolithic tradition
(Gatto 2002; 2006c). [I]Thus, the definition of what was Egyptian or Nubian at that time in
the First Cataract region (and the southern part of Upper Egypt) is not so obvious: are the local cooking pots
(shale-tempered ware), for example, Egyptian or Nubian?
: are the local cooking pots .
British Museum - Gatto

As you can see the relation between Nubia and Egypt is a very complicated one, I remember one Researcher even saying one can't draw a line between the two(paraphrase).

Last edited by The Reality; September 23rd, 2017 at 07:49 AM.
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Old September 28th, 2017, 08:04 PM   #8

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Great post, The Reality. Good evidence for the long and complicated interconnections between Nubia and Egypt.
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 09:24 PM   #9
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Yes. Just as Greco-Roman indicates two successful classical regions/civilizations that were intertwined so does Egypto-Nubian.
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Old October 3rd, 2017, 09:17 PM   #10
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What utter nonsense and another attempt to insult Egypt. There was no nubian influence in Egypt. They were seen as slaves and nothing else. Why dont you label your culture inuit-saxon? Or bangladeshi-scottish?

I honestly was not aware how great this hate against my country and people is over there.

You know what? You may want live in your utopia, but this does not affect us in any way. What you claim here is an insult against Egypt and illegal by egyptian law. You insult our nation, insult our ancestors and history. It can bring you up to 5 years prison in Egypt and i believe more should be done regarding that.

The number of nubians in egypt was below 4%. They were labelled as primitive, cowardly and savage by Pharaoh Amenmenhet II.

Take your slavery complex and celebrate it somewhere else.

Last edited by Ranefer; October 3rd, 2017 at 09:24 PM.
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