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Middle Eastern and African History Middle Eastern and African History Forum - Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and all nations of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula


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Old November 30th, 2017, 09:24 AM   #411
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Yes I must say. ANCIENT cultures are quite inferior to ANCIENT Egypt. There is a reason why so many ancient civilizations looked up to Egypt. Its how a kid looks into a candy store. No one here is denying that other civilizations didn't have more of an impact that Ancient Egypt. However, gunpowder and and other things were invented in the Middle Ages. Most people I talk to who love history loves ANCIENT history. Most know nothing about the other civilizations. So I don't think Ancient Egypt is overrated.. Just more well known and better liked. Something I can agree with

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Old November 30th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #412

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Yes I must say. ANCIENT cultures are quite inferior to ANCIENT Egypt. There is a reason why so many ancient civilizations looked up to Egypt. Its how a kid looks into a candy store. No one here is denying that other civilizations didn't have more of an impact that Ancient Egypt. However, gunpowder and and other things were invented in the Middle Ages. Most people I talk to who love history loves ANCIENT history. Most know nothing about the other civilizations. So I don't think Ancient Egypt is overrated.. Just more well known and better liked. Something I can agree with
If you talk about Indian and Chinese civilizations, which are still extent today, they had little interactions with ancient Egyptian civilization.
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Old December 8th, 2017, 10:51 PM   #413
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No I dont think its overrated




I dont really think any culture is overrated, they all made notable and different achievements.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 08:25 AM   #414

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Well, Ramses the Great had red hair and a prominent Roman nose. Both of which are exclusively Caucasian traits. And the study I posted last night conclusively demonstrated that the ancient Egyptians were Caucasians. Most closely related to people from the Levant, Anatolia, and southeastern Europe. They were not in any way related to sub-Saharan Africans or Nubian. You are mistaking geographical proximity with ethnicity and race.
i said this already, mixed race people can have red hair also the "Roman nose" is not exclusive to Caucasians
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Old December 16th, 2017, 09:11 AM   #415

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This is a strawman. Most Black Americans involved in historical debates generally only care about Egyptian technology to prove that Blacks weren't backwards. They don't care about the morality of the Pharaonic state or the Egyptian ruling class, just like how European nationalists mostly cite Greco-Roman technology to prove the superiority of Europe or the West, not so much the morality of Greeks and Romans.
finally someone gets why the black diaspora has an unhealthy obsession with Egypt. being called inferior for 300+ years can do something to your psyche. it does not help the fact that advance art & organization in Black Africa was seen as influenced be Arab or white people in Atlantis. Great Zimbabwe was denied the fact that it was made by Black people
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:53 PM   #416

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i said this already, mixed race people can have red hair also the "Roman nose" is not exclusive to Caucasians
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I may not be a moderator; I feel obliged to tell newcomers about our rule of no genetics and discussions of features.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 12:52 AM   #417

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"Is it overrated?" is a pretty biased question. In respect to other civilizations that I like better? I guess.

Egyptian mathematics did indeed predate Greece. Some early Greek mathematicians were educated in Egypt. Euclid? The "founder of geometry?" ... is also known as Euclid of Alexandria.

I can't speak for astronomy. I just don't know. They must have been doing SOMETHING with the stars to align the pyramids dead on. The Sun reaches Ramses statue deep inside the temple at Abu Simbel only on the longest day. They were paying SOME attention. I suppose you can make the argument that their seasons were more governed by the Nile's three phases, rather than the stars ... but the stars still predict the seasons. Egypt was based on a solar calendar: 365 days plus a leap day. Julius Caesar changed the Roman lunar calendar (with it's leap month) specifically when the Egyptian calendar was explained to him (but he cut up the 365 days & 12 months differently).
---
An unsung contribution of Egypt is medicine. They were 1000's of years (yes, 1000's) in advance of the Greeks & Romans. Each temple had a "House of Life" where physicians were trained. Usually, they were not general practitioners, but specialized in one area. Cleopatra VII wrote a couple of books on gynecology ... as well as some other remedies (like baldness) that Galen quotes. The Egyptians had an advantage over everybody else because they didn't have any taboos about dead bodies. They not only discovered the circulatory system, but the nervous system as well ... and surgical tools and images indicate they weren't shy about invasive procedures ... hopefully to HELP someone.

Greeks & Romans were trained in kind of a "philosophical" medicine based on the "four humors." Some one got sick because black bile was imbalanced with yellow bile. You had to find something to balance them.

There's evidence that ANCIENT Egyptians treated schistosomiasis/bilharzia with antimony (small doses of the poison actually kill the parasite ... but it's a pretty hard cure). There's more of this disease in Egypt *NOW* then there's every been, BTW. Anyway, the point is they learned elementary cause & effect for some diseases. Before anyone jumps in: they did not have microscopes, they could not have possibly known about the bilharzia parasite, but it's possible they did figure out a cure. No one knows how. It's like those South Americans primitives that figured out you have to leech acorns 7 times to get rid of .. arsenic? or is it cyanide? I forget ... and make the acorns edible. How did they figure THAT out?

Greek & Roman physicians would train first in Greece or Rome, but then would come to Egypt to learn "practical" medicine & actually poke around in corpses. Galen talks about doing just this thing. All his drawings were done in Egypt, because it was illegal everywhere else.

Ancient Egyptians were the world's greatest physicians for a long time. Even into the first few centuries ACE, when they could still do autopsies. I forgot why it was eventually stopped, but that's when Galen's drawings became gold.

I would consider the most advanced medical knowledge for 1000's of years pushing Egypt into the UNDER-rated side.
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Otherwise, big buildings, wars, kings, peasants, agriculture, religion ... pretty much like everyone else. Now that I think about it, they had laws protecting outrageous treatment of slaves that predate the Roman ones.

They had the bigEST buildings. Google "pyramids" and see how many modern interpretations you can find (quite a few). Google "Egyptian architecture" and *MOST* of it is modern interpretations (some pretty ugly). Other than being incredibly enormous, the architecture doesn't bring anything new ... but people seem to like it. Ionian, Dorian, or columns shaped like a lotus: potato, potahto

They didn't invent writing, but hieroglyphs sure are pretty. They *DID* invent papyrus paper that was used in both Greece & Rome ... but that's not very sexy. Still, it beats the stuffing out of clay tablets. Papyrus was in use at least as early as 1200 BCE, Roman parchment wasn't invented until 1 ACE, Chinese paper soon after.

I used to think Egyptian art was all flat and cartoony. I've been looking at a lot lately ... close up ... zoomed in. There are recognizable faces & emotions, delicate hands, fingers intertwined ... that kind of stuff. Perhaps other cultures, before or during, did exactly the same thing. Egypt had the luxury of it's tombs preserving some paint.

I can't believe they invented porn, but there sure is a lot of it, and I've never seen anything that predates it. Actually, that seems kind of odd. I wonder if there are cave paintings that just don't show up in books.

Last edited by Dios; January 10th, 2018 at 02:13 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 01:45 AM   #418

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If you talk about Indian and Chinese civilizations, which are still extent today, they had little interactions with ancient Egyptian civilization.
"And faint beneath the weight of gems and gold.
Her snowy breast shone through Sidonian lawn
Which woven close by shuttles of the East
The art of Nile had loosened.
"
-- Lucan, Pharsalia, Book 10

This is a poem about Cleopatra VII. "Sidonian lawn" is a reference to silk, which is woven tightly, of course. The Egyptians took tiny combs and tediously stretched out the threads. The result was a fabric that was completely transparent, but shimmered. The elite were into that sort of thing: there are many transparent gauzy fabrics in paintings.

You are probably correct about little cultural or political influence from China, but you can't stop trade. Chinese silk was in Egypt at least by the 1st century BCE. It's difficult to tell WHAT transparent fabric is in paintings 4000 yrs old.

The Ptolemies had a spice trade with India first, then the Romans learned about it from them.

Click the image to open in full size.
All the good pics with gauze had this same "Amazon" style. I couldn't find a more conservative one. The most common style seems to be a a very snug fitting solid cloth covering the body to the ankles, baring one side of the chest, and kind of a transparent cloak over the side that isn't bared.
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Before people start jumping up & down about skin color, Lucan was born 69 yrs after Cleopatra died. There was a statue of her in Rome but it was gilt. The word "snowy" refers to what the general populace, none of them alive when Cleopatra visited Rome, THOUGHT would be appropriate. This is a "poem" not a police description.

Last edited by Dios; January 10th, 2018 at 02:22 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 10:35 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Dios View Post
.....
I can't believe they invented porn, but there sure is a lot of it, and I've never seen anything that predates it. Actually, that seems kind of odd. I wonder if there are cave paintings that just don't show up in books.
?

'Invented porn' ? Whatever gave you that idea ?

'Pornography' depends on the intent of the producer of the material . How can you tell their intent in what they depicted ?

If one thinks the definition of 'pornography' depends on self perceptions, then we could claim earlier sources.

This response was bought about by a conversation I had elsewhere that stemmed from a scientist (of sorts ) from Cambridge University ( I think ) describing this type of carving (of all things ) as 'ancient pornography' ;


Click the image to open in full size.


- If that science thinks this is ' ancient porn' ... one can only assume he is a fan of 'Sir Mix-a-lot ' .....




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Old January 10th, 2018, 12:18 PM   #420

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Originally Posted by specul8 View Post
?

'Invented porn' ? Whatever gave you that idea ?

'Pornography' depends on the intent of the producer of the material . How can you tell their intent in what they depicted ?

If one thinks the definition of 'pornography' depends on self perceptions, then we could claim earlier sources.

This response was bought about by a conversation I had elsewhere that stemmed from a scientist (of sorts ) from Cambridge University ( I think ) describing this type of carving (of all things ) as 'ancient pornography' ;


Click the image to open in full size.


- If that science thinks this is ' ancient porn' ... one can only assume he is a fan of 'Sir Mix-a-lot ' .....




I think he is thinking of Turin Papyrus, but I agree those "Venus" figurines really wallop you with their female er.. Attributes.. Attributes.. Yes that's it!
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