Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > Middle Eastern and African History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Middle Eastern and African History Middle Eastern and African History Forum - Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and all nations of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 10th, 2016, 01:34 PM   #31

mnsr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 1,166

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maotun
The word " universal " represents linguistic unity here. For instance, a Turk from Azerbaijan and Anatolia can easily get along. Because even though the dialects are different, the grammatic structure and language are common, which is Turkish. But the Kurds don't have a common tongue. The dialects they speak are not the language of a nation. They are only regional and tribal dialects.
Well Turks speak some two dozen languages and dialects still they are a nation and Arabs also speak some dozen language varieties from Morocco to Oman, still a nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maotun
can you teach law at academic level or explain the solutions of geometry problems in Kurdish?
YES, YOU CAN. Check these links and see their ability to express anything:- Kurdî کوردیی

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maotun
That is the reason why the regional government in Northern Iraq also failed.
Well, if we look at the current situation in Libya, Yeman, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. Can we we say all these countries failed because of Arabic language ?
mnsr is offline  
Remove Ads
Old December 11th, 2016, 02:34 AM   #32
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,680

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Well Turks speak some two dozen languages and dialects still they are a nation and Arabs also speak some dozen language varieties from Morocco to Oman, still a nation.



YES, YOU CAN. Check these links and see their ability to express anything:- Kurdî کوردیی



Well, if we look at the current situation in Libya, Yeman, Syria, Iraq and Egypt. Can we we say all these countries failed because of Arabic language ?
they do not have one unified language purely due to western powers, Arabs AND MOST IMPORTANTLY PERSIANS AND TURKS who played them against one another. For language to unify there needs to be a political union. Spanish, Italian, German and even French all had multiple dialects and eventually one dialect was adopted as a standard. Kurds could have done it if they were politically unified. Until the 19th century Central Kurmanji might well have emerged as the sole language of all Kurds infact Sorani literature did not emerge much until then purely because Kurmanji literature was considered representative of all of Kurdish literature.. Kurmanji however declined falling under Turkish domination. And then Sorani dialect emerged in a more Liberal Iran. Infact most dialects were far closer until the late 18th century and could easily have consolidated. Diffeences emerged thereafter due to different scripts, different states, and kurds adopting different official languages whose words entered into their local dialects. Kurds must go back to the countryside Kurmanji dialects and use Kurdish root words and purge outside elements similar to Persian and Turkish.
greatstreetwarrior is offline  
Old December 11th, 2016, 02:53 AM   #33

Afrasiyab's Avatar
Asia Minor's Daddy
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,273

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
This was first proposed by George Rawlinson based on lexical similarity and geographical location. Now many recent sources also support this: Revue des études arméniennes by Société des études armeniennes; The Role of Hostages in Roman Diplomacy with Sasanian Persia by AD Lee.

These sources also regard the language of Corduene as proto-Kurdish. Also, Check this online lesson on Old Iranian from University of Texas: Carduchi as Old Iranian language
Those links say nothing about the Corduene?
Afrasiyab is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 12:33 PM   #34

mnsr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 1,166

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
Those links say nothing about the Corduene?
Well I cant give more reliable source than iranicaonline. Here are some excerpts:

"In the Roman period .. called the northern spurs of the Zagros the Carduchian mountains .. Strabo called the tribes living there Corduene"

"It has repeatedly been argued that the Carduchi were the ancestors of the Kurds, but the Cyrtii .. are more likely candidates."

Carduchi

"The Cyrtii are called one of the Persian tribes by Strabo... The putative ancestors of the Kurds and Lurs, as such they would belong to the Aryan-speaking category. They may already have been well distributed in the Zagros from Persia into Media, though not yet as far as Corduene above the upper Tigris or Azerbaijan (Media Atropatene). The Kurds would be firmly ensconced as a major people of the Zagros by the end of the Sasanian period"

Pre-Islamic peoples of Iran
mnsr is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 12:36 PM   #35

mnsr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2014
From: Asia
Posts: 1,166

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatstreetwarrior
they do not have one unified language purely due to western powers.
More than Western Powers it is the states like Turkey and Iran who do not like to give an "identity" to these people.

Agree, once you have a State, standard language is not a big deal.
mnsr is offline  
Old December 13th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #36
Citizen
 
Joined: Dec 2016
From: Maotun
Posts: 33

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
More than Western Powers it is the states like Turkey and Iran who do not like to give an "identity" to these people.

Agree, once you have a State, standard language is not a big deal.
* There is not a " Kurdish question " in Turkey, there is only the " PKK terrorism " problem in the last 35 years. " Free Kurdistan " has also been an imperial project of the West since the early 20th century but that is a different subject. Another fun fact is that while demanding for education in Kurdish, militants of the PKK terrorist organization use Turkish language. The militants get ideologically indoctrinated in Turkish at all camps ( including Bekaa region ), they also communicate to eachother in Turkish. The prosecution in the so-called PKK courts are carried out in Turkish too. Even the PKK publications, bulletins and documents are all in Turkish language. The ones who don't speak Kurdish in their own militant group and their partisans demand " Kurdish education " in Turkey, such an irony.

* What makes a language universal is not primarily the vocabulary, but the grammatic structure. In that sense, Kurdish is not unique because it is not an authentic language and its dialects don't have a coherent grammar. That is the reason why nobody practiced science with Kurdish, and it was never the language of a nation and a state.

* Russian orientalist and diplomat Basil Nikitin : " the Indo-European origin of Kurdish is controversial ".
* French jurist, sociologist and politician Maurice Duverger : " many ' scientists ' attempted to categorize this ambiguous community ( Kurds ) with an ambiguous language ( Kurdish ). The inconsistency of the results they came to, clearly revealed their silliness ".

* Russian orientalist Vladimir Minorsky accepted Kurdish as one of the North-West Iranic tongues. But he seperated it from modern Persian and claimed Kurdish must have a different origin. Minorsky said : " Kurds being considered as an Iranic people is based on linguistic and historical opinions, theories rather than anthropology and it is possible to claim that a tribe with a different origin named Corduene lived in the region and later intermingled with the Iranic people ".

* When it comes to the connection of " Kurdish " with Iran, the word " Kurd " does not exist in Persian, Sasanid, Med and other Aryan languages. Another theory is that some scholars claimed that the fake concept of " Aryanism " was made up by the European bourgeoisie.

* Finally, why there is not a single " Kurdish inscription, monument or cultural heritage " in East and Southeast Anatolia today? Is there such thing called " Kurdish architecture " for instance? Is there a single artifact, rug or even the piece of a broken arrow that belongs to the Kurds, which is on display in a European museum today? There is not because " propaganda, fabrication and reality " are very different things.
Maotun is offline  
Old December 14th, 2016, 04:34 AM   #37

Afrasiyab's Avatar
Asia Minor's Daddy
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,273

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
Well I cant give more reliable source than iranicaonline. Here are some excerpts:

"In the Roman period .. called the northern spurs of the Zagros the Carduchian mountains .. Strabo called the tribes living there Corduene"

"It has repeatedly been argued that the Carduchi were the ancestors of the Kurds, but the Cyrtii .. are more likely candidates."

Carduchi

"The Cyrtii are called one of the Persian tribes by Strabo... The putative ancestors of the Kurds and Lurs, as such they would belong to the Aryan-speaking category. They may already have been well distributed in the Zagros from Persia into Media, though not yet as far as Corduene above the upper Tigris or Azerbaijan (Media Atropatene). The Kurds would be firmly ensconced as a major people of the Zagros by the end of the Sasanian period"

Pre-Islamic peoples of Iran
Right, they are arguments and claims. I still think it is an enforced etymology to form an ancient base for the nation-ness of Kurdish people, which does not exist (though it is possible to create it on modern grounds). It is also highly possible that Kurds adopted that name from the Carduchi or they came to be known by that name and it stuck, like the word Armenian or Hittite-Hatti, which is not uncommon in Western Asia.

I don't think it is any different than this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turukkaeans
Afrasiyab is offline  
Old December 14th, 2016, 04:53 AM   #38

Bullit's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Nov 2016
From: Indus Valley, Pakistan
Posts: 792

The Kurdish language is defintely related to the Iranic group.

Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.
Bullit is online now  
Old December 14th, 2016, 05:00 AM   #39

Afrasiyab's Avatar
Asia Minor's Daddy
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,273

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maotun View Post
* There is not a " Kurdish question " in Turkey, there is only the " PKK terrorism " problem in the last 35 years. " Free Kurdistan " has also been an imperial project of the West since the early 20th century but that is a different subject. Another fun fact is that while demanding for education in Kurdish, militants of the PKK terrorist organization use Turkish language. The militants get ideologically indoctrinated in Turkish at all camps ( including Bekaa region ), they also communicate to eachother in Turkish. The prosecution in the so-called PKK courts are carried out in Turkish too. Even the PKK publications, bulletins and documents are all in Turkish language. The ones who don't speak Kurdish in their own militant group and their partisans demand " Kurdish education " in Turkey, such an irony.
There is a "Kurdish question", maotun and there is no good to denying it. Turkey's unfair treatment of Kurds has contributed to the formation of PKK. There were made many mistakes.

Why Kurdish militants use Turkish is simply because Kurdish has been a repressed language in Turkey. Plus Turkish is a prestige language among Kurds, even in Northern Iraq. A language with no outlet for literature, newspaper, publications etc. is prone to be limited for prolific communication, the case being for Kurdish. Kurdish, with all its dialects, have been repressed in the four countries (Iran, Turkey, Iraq and Syria). The outcome is "normal".

As for the "Kurdish education" in public schools, I don't think the government has to do that. It is a minority language and I don't want to pay for it. But Kurds should be allowed to pay for it and establish a curriculum for their children to learn their native tongue. But that should not rise to the point that they don't learn Turkish, which is idiotic. Everyone in Turkey HAS to speak Turkish. Not for legal or nationalist aspects, per se, but also you can't survive in Turkey without Turkish, even with English.



Quote:
* What makes a language universal is not primarily the vocabulary, but the grammatic structure. In that sense, Kurdish is not unique because it is not an authentic language and its dialects don't have a coherent grammar. That is the reason why nobody practiced science with Kurdish, and it was never the language of a nation and a state.
Kurdish is a generic name now, we could say Kurdish languages. The one spoken in Turkey is mainly called Kurmanji and the one in Northern Iraq is either Kurdi or Sorani, and they are not mutually intelligible. Because it was never the language of a nation or state does not mean it will never be. I mean even Montenegrin and Bosniak are considered different languages today.

*
Quote:
Russian orientalist and diplomat Basil Nikitin : " the Indo-European origin of Kurdish is controversial ".
* French jurist, sociologist and politician Maurice Duverger : " many ' scientists ' attempted to categorize this ambiguous community ( Kurds ) with an ambiguous language ( Kurdish ). The inconsistency of the results they came to, clearly revealed their silliness ".
From an ethno-linguistic point, Kurds belong to the Indo-European cluster. Genetically, though, they are like any other Middle Eastern people. I am not really sure about what their genes say and I don't know if it really matters. We classify people by the native language they speak now.

Quote:
* Russian orientalist Vladimir Minorsky accepted Kurdish as one of the North-West Iranic tongues. But he seperated it from modern Persian and claimed Kurdish must have a different origin. Minorsky said : " Kurds being considered as an Iranic people is based on linguistic and historical opinions, theories rather than anthropology and it is possible to claim that a tribe with a different origin named Corduene lived in the region and later intermingled with the Iranic people ".
I don't know much about Minorsky but there are many scholars who claim absurd things just because. Remember Sun Language Theory?

Quote:
* When it comes to the connection of " Kurdish " with Iran, the word " Kurd " does not exist in Persian, Sasanid, Med and other Aryan languages. Another theory is that some scholars claimed that the fake concept of " Aryanism " was made up by the European bourgeoisie.
You are right. Kurd always referred to a geographical group, not an ethnic entity. Nationalist Kurds do not accept that, though.

Quote:
* Finally, why there is not a single " Kurdish inscription, monument or cultural heritage " in East and Southeast Anatolia today? Is there such thing called " Kurdish architecture " for instance? Is there a single artifact, rug or even the piece of a broken arrow that belongs to the Kurds, which is on display in a European museum today? There is not because " propaganda, fabrication and reality " are very different things.
They are not the most refined culture in the world, yes, and they have not produced a particular heritage either but it does not mean they have "nothing". Not every people have to be like Greeks or Chinese. But I have to agree that Kurdish nationalism has lost its entire connection with reality. They are nuts. Some of them even deny Persians and say that they were actually Kurds, even Zarathusta, Cyrus etc. They even claim most of the words in Turkish are Kurdish or Iranic loans. Nuts.

Last edited by Afrasiyab; December 14th, 2016 at 05:06 AM.
Afrasiyab is offline  
Old December 14th, 2016, 05:08 AM   #40

Afrasiyab's Avatar
Asia Minor's Daddy
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,273

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullit View Post
The Kurdish language is defintely related to the Iranic group.

Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.

On top of it, saat and khalk are Arabic words.

And atesh, as in Turkish, is a Turkich word, reborrowed by Turkish from Farsi as well (from od to odash).
Afrasiyab is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > Middle Eastern and African History

Tags
ancient, karduchi, kurdish, related



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lifespans of Ancient and Medieval People Salah Ancient History 15 February 12th, 2012 02:17 PM
The Ancient "Sea People" Richard Stanbery Ancient History 50 July 23rd, 2011 12:50 PM
Photoshopped portraits of ancient people philhellene Ancient History 29 March 1st, 2011 04:36 PM
Did ancient people accept Hellenism? Satuf Ancient History 18 June 24th, 2010 12:27 PM
Did Ancient People Stink??? Salah Ancient History 20 February 15th, 2010 04:19 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.