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Old December 14th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #41

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
Right, they are arguments and claims. I still think it is an enforced etymology to form an ancient base for the nation-ness of Kurdish people, which does not exist (though it is possible to create it on modern grounds). It is also highly possible that Kurds adopted that name from the Carduchi or they came to be known by that name and it stuck, like the word Armenian or Hittite-Hatti, which is not uncommon in Western Asia.

I don't think it is any different than this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turukkaeans
Well, the method claim is same. BUT difference here is that we cannot deny the fact that Iranian people were present in Eastern Anatolia from the times of Median Empire, whereas the first documented presence of Turkic people is from the Seljuk Empire. So, anything related to Turks before Seljuk Empire has very rare chance to get acceptance in mainstream academia. On the other hand Carduchis and Corduene happened after the Median Empire, so they sound more plausible. But again there were 'other' people around there as well, so we should be more careful if proper data is not available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
There is a "Kurdish question", maotun and there is no good to denying it. Turkey's unfair treatment of Kurds has contributed to the formation of PKK. There were made many mistakes.
Very nice points.

I just like to add that it is comparing the legal Government of Turkey with a terrorist organisation like PKK is just absurd. It is the duty of the government to listen to teh concerns of their citizens. Though the things are improving but the speed is very slow and some of the changes are happening very late, they should have happened long back.

Interestingly check this Official Turkish website in Kurdish
http://www.diyarbakir.bel.tr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
You are right. Kurd always referred to a geographical group, not an ethnic entity. Nationalist Kurds do not accept that, though.
Actually many Nationalistic or ethnic terms today had very vague origins. Even the word "Turk" was used for any person of Turkic origin. Same way the word was used for any nomad of Iranian origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
They are not the most refined culture in the world, yes, and they have not produced a particular heritage either but it does not mean they have "nothing". Not every people have to be like Greeks or Chinese. But I have to agree that Kurdish nationalism has lost its entire connection with reality. They are nuts. Some of them even deny Persians and say that they were actually Kurds, even Zarathusta, Cyrus etc. They even claim most of the words in Turkish are Kurdish or Iranic loans. Nuts.
Heritage is more connected with the geographical region than an ethnic group. A Turk from Turkey can feel proud about teh heritage of his land, though Hattis, Hittites, Lydians, Byzantines etc none of them were speaking a tUrkic language. Same way a Kurd can feel proud about anything connected with his land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afrasiyab
On top of it, saat and khalk are Arabic words.
I just like to mention the numerals from one to ten and strangely the Kurdish numerals are exactly same are Persian ones. Numerals are usually most basics in the comparative linguistics.

yek (Persian: yek)
du (Persian: du)
s (Persian: seh)
ar (Persian: ehar)
pnc (Persian: penc)
şeş (Persian: şeş)
heft (Persian: heft)
heşt (Persian: heşt)
neh (Persian: neh)
deh (Persian: deh)
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Old December 14th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #42
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The " Kurdish issue " in Turkey has no historical or social foundation. It is an artificial construct of the Western imperial powers. It is also not really possible to say that Kurdish seperatism and Western-backed PKK terrorism is the result of an ethnic conflict between Turks and the Kurds in Turkey. Such discrimination by the institutions of the state or in daily life had never been done. People with Kurdish origin became president, ministers and artists in Turkey. They served in the military and never faced with an ethnic limitation or discrimination that prevented them from rising.

Before counting from 1 to 10 or posting the web address of Diyarbakır Municipality, there are better questions that require answers :

* Has anyone ever practiced science in Kurmanji or Zazaki before?
* Is there a single scientific book, written in Kurmanji or Zazaki in fields such as history, economy, law, social / physical / natural sciences, geology, astronomy, medicine, zoology, pharmacology and archeology?
* Is there a scientific library in Kurmanji or Zazaki?
* Are there any reference school books, written in Kurmanji or Zazaki except the alphabet?
* Why is education not given in Kurmanji after elementary school by the autonomous regional government ( KRG ) in Northern Iraq ?
* Why did Kurmanji get banned by the KRG and Sorani was enforced instead?
* Why the vast majority of classes in the universities of Northern Iraq are given in Arabic and English instead of Sorani?
* Why were the legislations, translated from Arabic to Sorani, considered as inadequate by KRG and failed to meet the legal requirements?
* Is it possible to establish secondary schools and universities that will give education in Kurmanji or Zazaki?
* If so, why did the KRG ban Kurmanji after elementary school?
* Kendal Nezan stated that the " standart Kurdish " in Sorani dialect will come into existence only after two generations ( which means 60 years ) during a Kurdish Language Seminar in Dohuk. If that is true, in which language will the education be given in the next 60 years?

If there are logical and factual answers for these questions, feel free to share. The Turkish presence in Asia Minor also goes back to over 2,000 years ago. It did not start in Seljuk period.

Last edited by Maotun; December 14th, 2016 at 08:01 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 01:28 AM   #43
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Kurdish languages are now at that point where many other languages were in the 19th century Europe. They are experiencing their "national awakening" in that field now. There was no much scientific literature in lets say Finnish or the Baltic languages in the 19th century but in some decades they became able to function well as official ones and in all levels of education. Kurdish languages also can express all kind of literature, incl foreign classics (I've seen Kafka, Orwell, Tolstoy, Poe etc translated to Kurdish...) .
After these creating a scientific vocabulary is the easier task, they can just loan words from Greek, Latin, Persian, Arabic origin like most other languages or do mirror translations of them.

These all depend on political will and power. Though there already arose two literary "standards" in Kurdish so i don't think one will be able to supress the other, they have to accept to have two separate Kurdish languages (and i don't count Zaza as Kurdish, imo it is separate, but then it is also political decision where a dialect ends and a new language starts). What is the future of these languages is totally up to political decisions, not in the internal capabilities of a language.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 01:44 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
Kurdish languages are now at that point where many other languages were in the 19th century Europe. They are experiencing their "national awakening" in that field now. There was no much scientific literature in lets say Finnish or the Baltic languages in the 19th century but in some decades they became able to function well as official ones and in all levels of education. Kurdish languages also can express all kind of literature, incl foreign classics (I've seen Kafka, Orwell, Tolstoy, Poe etc translated to Kurdish...) .
After these creating a scientific vocabulary is the easier task, they can just loan words from Greek, Latin, Persian, Arabic origin like most other languages or do mirror translations of them.

These all depend on political will and power. Though there already arose two literary "standards" in Kurdish so i don't think one will be able to supress the other, they have to accept to have two separate Kurdish languages (and i don't count Zaza as Kurdish, imo it is separate, but then it is also political decision where a dialect ends and a new language starts). What is the future of these languages is totally up to political decisions, not in the internal capabilities of a language.
The train of science had already departed for some languages. Scientific libraries were formed after hundreds, even thousands ( for some languages ) of years of practice. Britons, French, Germans formed their scientific literature by practicing science in Latin for over a 1,000 years. The same thing can be said for Turkish language too. From 9th century Uyghur period to the " Divan - Lgat-it Trk ", completed in 1074, there is over a 1,000 years of linguistic experience until today. That means science can be practiced with these languages. There are no such " hundred " or a " thousand " years ahead for a language to spend by waiting anymore. Experts on commercial law, anatomy, natural / political sciences or an economist, philosopher and a sociologist who claim that they know the best Kurdish can not write a textbook on their personal fields in Kurdish. Leave a scientific book to a side, they can not even translate a page of commercial law to Kurdish. There are hundreds of scientific fields and fields of specialty. You can not just borrow or copy & paste technical and scientific terms from another language.

It is not possible to compare Finnish with Kurdish either. Finnish is a standardized language. The first piece of Finn literature was a translation of the New Testament, published in 1548. The writing system of the standard Finnish, particularly spelling, still relies on that piece of work today. In the meantime, the dialects which are considered as " Kurdish " today are not even compatible to eachother in terms of grammar and structure. A Finn can get along with another Finn that lives in another country probably but there are cases such as a Kurd not understanding his / her friend who lives in the neighbouring village because Kurdish is not the authentic language of a nation, but the combination of regional and tribal dialects. That's why it is not possible to practice science or educate people with such a language and they ( KRG ) can not do it in Northern Iraq too.

Last edited by Maotun; December 15th, 2016 at 02:35 PM.
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Old December 15th, 2016, 01:50 PM   #45

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OK. we agree. Kurds are just "Mountain Turks" and they have to speak Turkish if they want to live peacefully !
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Old December 29th, 2016, 05:31 PM   #46

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I'm probably the only person living in Kurdistan responding here.

Anyway, while I'm very pro-Kurdish I will admit the Carduchi Kurdish connection is probably a real stretch. There is a vaguely similar name and vaguely similar geographic area. Fact is, pre-Islamic Kurdish history is very obscure and especially if we're talking about the ancient world.

Some people might get defensive about this because of chauvinist attempts to claim Kurds are not a legitimate ethnic group. Thing is, there are so many other ethnic groups who can't claim a history going back that far either and I think people have to be careful not to claim myth as history to themselves, like how some Afrocentrists in America have claimed cleopatra and even Buddha as black.

That's not to say Carduchi weren't Kurdish but we just don't know. It's difficult to trace a group that far and from a secondary source who didn't know their language or much about them.

So on to the next topic on the variations of Kurdish.

The Kurdish government in Iraq is not very functional but this is entirely due to a struggle between the political parties and not language.

Look at China. They have Mandarin, Cantonese, Fujianese and other dialects and cannot understand each other and no one says Chinese can't function or are not a legitimate ethnic group.

I have personally seen numerous textbooks written in Sorani Kurdish on law, science, literature, etc. The use of Arabic is decreasing in Kurdistan so academically it's more likely people will use English than Arabic.

When you're talking about a language with just a few million speakers then yes, it makes more sense to learn a more international language in academia. That doesn't mean it can't be expressed in that language. The number of Kurdish speakers proficient in international languages is still small so most things are written in Kurdish. There is a large body of translated literature.

I don't know why some people feel the need to put down Kurdish languages like they're not legitimate or something. Maybe these people have an inferiority complex and have to prove their culture is better in their eyes.

Bahdini or Kurmanji is used in the Duhok Governorate in the Kurdistan Region but I'm not aware of its status in universities. It may be that the number of speakers who have advanced education make it difficult to make a curriculum in the language. I'll have to ask about that. I do know people who translate works of literature to Badini.

The autonomous region of Kurdistan has a short history of autonomy so yes, there is some catching up to do and Kurds have various languages but that doesn't mean it can't be done despite what the chauvinists claim.

I think the comparison Tulun made with some European languages is very accurate.
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Old December 29th, 2016, 07:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antocya View Post
I have personally seen numerous textbooks written in Sorani Kurdish on law, science, literature, etc. The use of Arabic is decreasing in Kurdistan so academically it's more likely people will use English than Arabic.
What script would an independent Iraqi Kurdistan use: Latin or Persian?
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Old December 29th, 2016, 10:06 PM   #48

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Iraqi Kurdistan already uses a modified script similar to Persian but different in a few ways.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 03:16 PM   #49

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maotun View Post
The Turkish presence in Asia Minor also goes back to over 2,000 years ago. It did not start in Seljuk period.[/I]
Can you elaborate on this please? What do you mean by presence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnsr View Post
OK. we agree. Kurds are just "Mountain Turks" and they have to speak Turkish if they want to live peacefully !
What they have to do is simple: get rid of their tribal culture and avoid the method of terror as a problem solver.

Last edited by turing; December 31st, 2016 at 03:27 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 04:12 PM   #50

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turing
What they have to do is simple: get rid of their tribal culture and avoid the method of terror as a problem solver.
My point was not related to any Kurdish Terrorist Group but about the recognition of Kurdish language in Turkey.
And I also posted that things started changing very recently as Turkey wants to meet one of the European Union’s requirements for membership.
And most of my posts were just in reply to kiddish assumptions like "you can't write this in Kurdish or you can't write that in Kurdish"

Can you explain me Article 222-1 of Turkish Penal Code. "Anyone who contravenes the Law on the Approval and Implementation of Turkish Alphabetical Characters (No. 1353) of 01.11.1928 shall be sentenced to imprisonment of from two to six months."
Does that mean that they can punish anyone who writes Kurdish letters in Turkey ?

Last edited by mnsr; December 31st, 2016 at 04:14 PM.
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