Midas

You are very welcome to do so Efendi. Nobody can take away that from you. Just in case my previous comment wasn't clear.


I didn't say Greeks were a continuity to any Anatolian nation. That's why I and most literature set an end to the native Anatolian civilizations in the Hellenistic age. In other words, you just repeated what I initially meant. Even though Greeks had a presence in Anatolia for at least 3300 years (setting Miletus as a starter), they are not a continuity of the Hittites, Lydians, Carians etc. The same goes for the Turks.

As for the Phrygians, since they are my favourite ancient nation , allow me to make a correction. They were not initially Anatolians, but from the Balkans. They were not of course Greeks, but they were the closest nation to Greeks ever, since we shared space together in the Balkans during the bronze age. If you know Ancient Greek, it is possible sometimes to understand the general meaning of Phrygian writings. Most words are the same, with few changes and distortions. It has nothing to do with Hittite, Luwian etc.



Yes, but such Hittite words passed in every nation who settled in their lands. In Turkish is more or less the Hittite "lallnamen" that passed. In Capadocian Greek for example you will find tons of words, related to the Hittite and to other Anatolian languages (I have even seen Indo-Aryan words, possibly from the times of the Mitanni).

Midas

Sorry, but I didn't say anything about you turning from native Turkic religion to Islam. In case I was not clear, I mentioned that Greeks changed religions as well. Not just from Greek pantheon to Christianity, but they adopted Egyptian gods, Mithraism etc.

macro

So, would you say that today's Greeks are continuation of Ancient Greeks?

Satuf

Modern Greek is a direct descendant of ancient Greek. Same alphabet. They share a lot in common.

In Turkey, however, I don't think Turkish has anything in common with, let's say, Hittite language.

In Iraq and Syria case, we can say we have more connection to our ancient past due to the fact that Arabic is descendant of Aramaic and Akkadian, languages of Mesopotamia.

Same in Italy, they have more connection to their glorious Roman ancestors due to the fact that Italian is the descendant of Latin.

Midas

I said already in my previous posts that that there's no direct cultural sprout from Ancient to modern Greeks. That is impossible! There's a continuity from ancient to medieval and from medieval to modern, by whatever that means. All nations follow a natural process of evolution.

In the same way, Egyptians are not a direct sprout of Ancient Egyptians. Many things happened on the way, but still they are Egyptians and they have periodic continuity through the centuries.

My main point though was not that. My main point is that in the same way Greeks are not Hittites, Luwians, Carians and whatever ethnic group proceeded them in Anatolia, so are not the Turks, even though we (many Greeks and many Turks) might both have a genetic ancestry from such an ethnic group.

Midas

Excuse me Satuf, but it is not exactly like that. Modern Greek is a direct descendant of Koine (more precisely medieval Greek that derives from Koine), in other words the Greek that was standardized in the era of Alexander. Our grammar is identical to that, not the grammar Socrates and Herodotus used. Of course, that doesn't mean that modern Greek is not Greek. Language change is to be expected and Greek has a rather slow change in comparison to other languages such as for example English and French.

Also, it is quite funny that the first "modern Greek like" speakers were not ethnically Greeks, but Phrygians. They seem to have been the first to switch dative with genitive and use innovations found in modern Greek.

Efendi

I have much things to say to these above. But one step before these all, how do you define continuity?

Imagine your grand grand dad converted to Islam in x date. So you are a Turk in Turkey. Would you be continuity of your Greek granddads ?

The same question can be applied to your grandad who was converted to Ortodoxy and became Rum (o rumios)

Midas

Now, your question is right, but you don't examine 1 person at a time. You examine continuity in a movement representing an identity. Lets say my great great grandfather was Turk and decided to become Greek. His choice means he would identify with a group that already exists and adopt its identity. He would have absolutely no effect to that group, the group would have an effect on him.

Continuity, would mean that a group of people keep themselves to the principles I mentioned previously and that they go through the same changes (that's inevitable) together when time passes.

Now, how many really converted to Christianity? I mean, there are very very few examples. Most people converted to Islam and that's why most Turks have native ancestry in Anatolia.

Bahadir

Great posts Midas! I mostly agree what you said about ancient Anatolian people...

And besides I appreciate your civilized manner in the thread.

macro

"After Troy has fallen, Trojan armies were separated by two groups.


One group had followed King Priamos's grandchild Francon from Hector, other group had followed King Priamos's grandchild Turkus from Troilus. Therefore there are two nations, originated from Trojans, their names have been known as "Franks" and "Turks" by the world currently." Vincent de Beauvais - Latin
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"Turks' homelands are behind of the Caucasian Mountains. Their roots were originated from the son of Trojan King Priamos, Turkos the son of Troilos. Turkos and his people migrated from this area after Troy city has fallen." Andrea Dandolo - Italian
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"Therefore the heroes of those lands, Turkish men and women come from Hektor's blood, who was very brave and strong." Sebastien Mamerot - French
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"All Turks were known as Trojans during the middle ages of Europe. However, when the Turks became a threat for Catholic world, all they had tried to change this idea" James Harper - American
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"Turks came back from deepness of Asia to take Troy's vengeance from the Greeks" Jean Pouchet - French
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"I have taken the vengeance of “Trojan War”! But I can’t understand why Italians are enemy to us by saving the Greeks against us despite the same roots we have been sharing." II. Mehmet - Conqueror of Istanbul
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"We took the vengeance of Troy, again from the Greeks at Dumlupınar" Mustafa Kemal Atatürk – The Founder of Turkish Republic
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"Turci in Latin and Turchi in Italian, both, come from Teurci, which was formerly used to indicate the name the “Trojans” by Latin poem writer Vergilius. In Scandinavian languages, "Tyrkir" has two meanings: one of them is Turkish, the other is Trojan" Haluk Şahin - Turkish
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“Trojans were the origin of Luvis who became later the roots of Hittites. Everybody knows they came from behind the Caucasian mountains. However, nobody knows where they went after their empire has fallen as nobody knows where the Trojans went..."