Davidius

We, in Britain at least, have Nenius and Geoffrey of Monmouth to thank for this.



It is easy to criticise them nowadays but we should remember that they didn't have our vast historical resources to draw upon. And they do tell an entertaining tale!

ib-issi

That is really what i am getting at Cell , Unless they are something really special , you are not going to get Kings, rulers of dynasties and nations wanting to be linked to losers , so does this make the claims more believable ?


PS. your signature from Winston Churchill is ironic here "it is the victors who write the history" but maybe it is the losers who made future history in this case

ib-issi

Like i am trying to say Davidius, whether the claims are true or not , why did so many want to be linked to the losers , it is not really common is it , it is the victors everyone wants to be connected to ???

Gary

Its all about legitimising the foundation myth of any country. The Iliad was the most known ancient source of legend, and if you connect your people with them it is establishing that your ancestors are older, better and more prestigious than the guys next door. Pretty much the same of early Christian dynasties claming descent from Odin.

Brisieis

No, it is not more believable.

The Trojans only lost because of the prudence of the Greeks. You have to get the feel for the entire story rather than saying 'winners or losers' because the Trojans very nearly wiped the floor with the Greeks.

That is one reason why people would associate themselves with Trojans, because they were reknown for being tough and it was only at the end of a long war, and the clever manipulation of the Greeks that they lost.

Also please bear in mind, many people like to be associated with the famous, victory has nothing to do with it. Even people on this forum think they related to famous people, it is a very human thing to want to link themselves with famous people from the past. This 'wanting' of association does not prove anything.

Being the victor is not always what matters, but showing bravery and courage.

Davidius

But I think that, in this case, the losers are the better men. The Trojans come across as civilised, honourable and just. The Argives seem savage, quarrelsome and petty. We also know where the victors went after the war, but as the fate of the losers is unknown then it makes it convenient to link them to our own culture, presumably in the hope that some of their dignity will rub off on us.

Brisieis

Remember also that the Trojans that were left had to start a new life... carry on the Trojan name... so anyone could easily make claim to being related to the Trojans.

It would be like if the city of Thebes was written into some old Homeric tale that lasted the ages, people would probably say the same thing about being related to ancient Thebans, even though the city got sacked and burnt to the ground. It is all in the romance of the stories that are very ancient and that have lasted through the generations - even to us this very day.

Pythagoras

The funny fact that many seem to overpass, was that Homer's Iliad never focused on the Siege itself or the capture of the city. The sole purpose of the Iliad was to describe the anger of Achilles. The capture of the city and the construction of the Trojan Horse were never described by Homer. In fact, the first lyrics of Homer's Iliad are:

Translated more or less as: "Sing about the anger, Goddess, of Achilles Son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans, and many brave souls of heroes he sent hurrying down to Hades".

p.s: Btw, even though Achilles is the protagonist, his death is not described either. At the moment his anger is gone, the epic poem ends. So, we can even say that the protagonist is not Achilles, but his anger.

WeisSaul

Considering a certain company with the name Trojan, I don't think anybody really wants to claim that they are Trojans anymore...

You'd be surprised. There are stupid people everywhere.

Diviacus

Not always !

As the inhabitants of France are concerned, there has been a long period when the Gauls have been deliberately forgotten as they had lost against Rome. The Franks were then the people claimed as ancestors by the French.
For political reasons linked to the French Revolution and to the 1870 war against Germany, the Franks were no longer the ideal ancestors. So the Gauls, and Vercingetorix, have been unearthed, despite of the fact that they had been the losers.

Generally speaking, the French (and the Catholics) are not so attracted by winners as the Anglo-Saxons (are the Protestants) are.