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Old November 7th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #31

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There were probably only like 15,000 combatants at Tours, with the Franks having a numerical superiority. It was nothing spectacular.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #32

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Definitely agree Gnaeus - it was a razzia (raid in force) like other raids in this period. The original invasion of Spain in 711 was not a lot more than 10,000 if I remember rightly (aided of course by one side). Things were just not geared up for large armies at that time - low populations, no large standing armies etc. Despite massive exegerations in many annals the muslim armies didn't get really huge until Almanzor's dictatorship, when he brought in many thousands of foreign soldiers.

The interesting thing for me is that if the muslims hadn't smashed Count Eudon of Aquitania before the battle of Poitiers, then the Franks wouldn't have had excuse or need to move south into what they called the 'visigothic lands' (south of France in this case). So this may well have changed history, or at least the timescale of it!!
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Old November 8th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #33

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Holding cities does seem to suggest that they intended to stay, and whether it was intended as a partial or total conquest is irrelevent. They were invaders that needed to be forcibly expelled. The Battle of Tours was a decisive blow that firmly changed the balance of power
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Old November 8th, 2012, 08:49 AM   #34

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The battle has a greater importance than a mere raiding.

The purpose of Muslim military activity in southern France was to conquer the area.

The defeat prevented such event of uknown consequences.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #35

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
There were probably only like 15,000 combatants at Tours, with the Franks having a numerical superiority. It was nothing spectacular.
That's what I like to see, an opinion 1,300 years later that totally contradicts everything every source on the battle says. Keep up the good work.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #36

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It was a standard Islamic raiding force. Check out the near-contemporary descriptions of Muslim raiding forces in the Byzantine military manual de Velitatione.
I read a brief description of it.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #37

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That's what I like to see, an opinion 1,300 years later that totally contradicts everything every source on the battle says. Keep up the good work.
Both sides say that the other had hundreds of thousands of soldiers, which would've been impossible with the technology available to either side. The Primary Sources of Ancient and Medieval Times almost always over-exaggerate the enemy's numbers.
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Old November 9th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #38

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Both sides say that the other had hundreds of thousands of soldiers, which would've been impossible with the technology available to either side. The Primary Sources of Ancient and Medieval Times almost always over-exaggerate the enemy's numbers.
I agree, but but how do you arrive at your figures?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 04:30 AM   #39

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I agree, but but how do you arrive at your figures?
Since the fighting prowess of the Franks and the Umayyads would've been similar, and that the Franks won, I just thought that the Franks had a numerical superiority (that's also what all the Islamic sources say). Considering that most raiding forces number less than 10,000 men, well that's how. It's just estimation, but I find it more credible than the "the other side had 5,000,000 men!" style analysis given by the primary sources.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #40

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Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
Since the fighting prowess of the Franks and the Umayyads would've been similar, and that the Franks won, I just thought that the Franks had a numerical superiority (that's also what all the Islamic sources say). Considering that most raiding forces number less than 10,000 men, well that's how. It's just estimation, but I find it more credible than the "the other side had 5,000,000 men!" style analysis given by the primary sources.
Even if the Franks had a larger army, I think its still a remarkable victory for them....having a larger force not necessarily discredit victories...
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