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Old October 27th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #301

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That's just the most insulting and rude behavior I have seen in these threads. You are the one who is using the text as a proof, why do I have to go all the way. Just briefly state what's the point of this text?
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Old October 27th, 2012, 07:50 AM   #302
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Why do you get so touchy all of a sudden? What is exactly "rude" in my behaviour?

And I'm not the one saying "You Turks want to dominate the history like you dominate lands". If you have some sort of issues with Turks, then its best to avoid any kind of discussion.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #303

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
Why do you get so touchy all of a sudden? What is exactly "rude" in my behaviour?

And I'm not the one saying "You Turks want to dominate the history like you dominate lands". If you have some sort of issues with Turks, then its best to avoid any kind of discussion.
I do not hate the Turks, I actually love their culture and bir Az zaif AzarbAycAnca dAnishiram. It's just that their actual history is much more interesting to me than what they try to fabricate. You fail to explain yourself even on the most primitive issues and you expect me to accept your answers because they are simply obvious to you. You just want to overpower me with your stamina in replying posts. I can give you examples:

1) You just dodge my questions. Whenever I bring up the issue of the populous settlements in Azerbaijan prior to the 10th century you just ignore my questions.

2) I do not understand how you defied the basic principles of biology. You never explained your logic to me.

3) You have named countless tribes of Turkic nomads living in the area. The tribes mean nothing to me, because you do not say anything about their sizes. At times they could contain only a dozen people.

4) You constantly accuse me of being a "Monoglot", an "Uneducated" and "Ignorant" person. How does that help us in settling our argument I'll never understand.

5) I do not see any sources. You can name a book, an author, refer me to a weblog. I never speak of Persian, Arabic, Latin or German sources, do I? I expect you to do the same and bring forth sources which we can both read and agree upon.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #304

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I also apologize for my previous statement about the Turks. You just cornered me on that and I lost control.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazratemahmood View Post
I do not hate the Turks, I actually love their culture and bir Az zaif AzarbAycAnca dAnishiram. It's just that their actual history is much more interesting to me than what they try to fabricate. You fail to explain yourself even on the most primitive issues and you expect me to accept your answers because they are simply obvious to you. You just want to overpower me with your stamina in replying posts. I can give you examples:

1) You just dodge my questions. Whenever I bring up the issue of the populous settlements in Azerbaijan prior to the 10th century you just ignore my questions.

2) I do not understand how you defied the basic principles of biology. You never explained your logic to me.

3) You have named countless tribes of Turkic nomads living in the area. The tribes mean nothing to me, because you do not say anything about their sizes. At times they could contain only a dozen people.

4) You constantly accuse me of being a "Monoglot", an "Uneducated" and "Ignorant" person. How does that help us in settling our argument I'll never understand.

5) I do not see any sources. You can name a book, an author, refer me to a weblog. I never speak of Persian, Arabic, Latin or German sources, do I? I expect you to do the same and bring forth sources which we can both read and agree upon.
Sorry but like said you have a wrong perspective, and bear in mind that population changes have always occured in many different parts of the world. No one is saying that other nations were not absorbed in the process, but that does not take away the prominent influence. There is just nothing to support that a language shift could have taken place, because that happens in conditions far different than our examples. Only a strong migration could have caused this, and it did.

1 and 2: I already replied to them.

And let me post this portrait of Uzun Hasan since you talk so much of "biology": Does he look like someone from Mongolia to you? That is what you except Oghuz to be, no?

Click the image to open in full size.

3: They were numerous, read Safavid sources. Even the smallest tribes had up to 70-80 thousand households (families) during Safavid era. After all these tribes formed the back-bone of dynasties of Qara-Qoyunlu, Agh-Qoyunlu and Safavids, that would not be possible without a strong base of population.

And like said, even today it exists. Look at how wide-spread Qarapapaq-Tarakama tribe is, and this is not a simple name because they are unique in culture and so on.

Click the image to open in full size.

In Iranian Azerbaijan this also exists. Afshars of Urmia, Qaradaghli's of Qaradagh, Shahsevens and others.

No, I don't call you "ignorant", I just don't think you have acces (or choose to have) to real facts and information about the subject.

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; October 27th, 2012 at 09:17 AM.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
"Original Turks? By majority, we are from Oghuz ancestry. See above.

In Kitabi Dede Qorqud (epic tales of medieval Oghuz tribes which takes place in present-day Azerbaijan) Azerbaijan are described as "Oğuz Eli", the Country of Oghuz. Oğuz Eli is situated in Caucasus next to Georgia in Kitabi Dede Qorqud.

So its funny to attempt to deny the Oghuzness of the Oghuz land...
Can you explain why over 95% of oghuz salars in china are mongoloid? Caucasian salars are very rare.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 09:24 AM   #307
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In China, that is very natural, no? They have lived among Chinese groups for centuries.

And maybe you can explain why our Oghuz ancestors werent. See Uzun Hasan, from the Bayandur tribe of Oghuz. Not that such features does not exist among our own people (it does), but even back then it was not that much more among our Oghuz ancestors than what it is today.

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; October 27th, 2012 at 09:47 AM.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #308

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By the way happy Republic Day to all of you guys!
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Old October 28th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #309
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First hand observations by Zubov on peoples of Caucasus, dating back to 1834. I will quote the part about Azerbaijani Turks for the sake of our previous discussions.

http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokume...P_P/text12.htm

"Tatars living in the Caucasus Territory, there are descendants of the Mongol-Tatar known that in the reign Abakahana seized Persia, Georgia and all provinces, which lie near the western shore of the Caspian Sea in the early 12th century after Christ founded his holdings in [154] conquered countries . Constrained first by the Turks, have spread beyond the Caucasus its power in the late XV century, and then the Persians have mastered in Dynasty Sofiev almost all countries lying between the Black and Caspian Seas, and being under their rule, kept in some way people's identity, for having always Khans from among their own, were primacy in all provinces except the Caucasus region of Georgia, utesnyaya indigenous Armenians. This kind of factors contributed to the formation of the imperative of the haughty and spirit, they differ in features. Not being forced rabstvovat, they retained honesty, frankness and determination manifested in all their actions: Although not neglect peaceful [155] is being a citizen and farmer, but it is much more able to craft a warrior and a shepherd. From this cause the biggest part of them lead a nomadic life, following the example of their ancestors, who lived on the vast steppes near the Volga, Don and the Urals. Nomadic life does have its own special amenities for the people, accustomed themselves to endure all the air change. The most mountainous region to the location of these things helps. When spring came they, with their numerous herds are raised for the first slope of the mountains, covered with lush green beginners, with a gradual increase in the heat, and they gradually rise higher on the mountain, and in the hot summer months, migrate to the very top of the Front Range. With the reduction of fires begin to descend again, and in the winter have lived in [156] valleys. Those delivering the abundant food perekochevaniem their herds, they enjoy the most pleasant year-round time of year - in the spring. The device of their summer homes woven from thin rods and round rugs obveshennyh homework is great for any living. In winter they live in mud huts, of which advanced wall consists of several logs, set upright, and has a small shed, and inside is molded from clay fireplace, means constantly burning fire. This kind of life contributes to sodelaniyu nomadic Tatar sturdy, strong and healthy. With great dexterity own weapon, excellent horsemen, brave and fearless, that regardless of the old-time proven by experience in recent Persian and Turkish war, under the [157] command of His Serene Highness the Prince of Warsaw, Graf Paskevich of Erivan, and even before, during Action General Prince Madatova in Northern Dagestan, under his leadership in the conquest of the Khanate Kazykumykskogo, suppression and Akushintsev Tabasarans."

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; October 28th, 2012 at 07:19 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 09:13 AM   #310

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Originally Posted by Ayazid View Post
Supposedly by a constant influx of new Turkish tribes from Central Asia, but that wasn't really the case in the 16th century anymore, so it doesn't sound really convincing to me.

Besides, it's interesting that the Turkic speakers in Iran are geographically so separated: Azeris in the Northwest, Turkmens and Khorasan Turks in the Northeast and the Qashqai in the South. I wonder why were Mazandaran and Gilan never turkified.

Mountains allow nations to protect themselves. Completely eradicating a culture is difficult. Therefore, most mountain regions of the world contain large numbers of national and ethnic groups in mountainous regions. These groups resist absorption and annihilation. Therefore the Gilaki and Mazandarni Languages have been preserved and were not Turkified. The same holds ture with Kurdish Language in Iran, Iraq and Turkey. Same reason why Talysh have not been Turkified in either Iran and Azerbaijan.
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