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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:22 AM   #361
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Antocya, Azerbaijani Turks always identified themselves as Turks and even distanced themselves from non-Turks.

Here are old Azerbaijani proverbs about Persians (referred to as Tats). Nationalism did not exist during old times, but that does not mean that people did not identify themselves within larger groups and neither held feelings towards their own and others.

In these examples Azerbaijani Turks refer to themselves as Turk or Tarakama (Turkemen).

Tat ata mindi, tanrısını tanımadı. Tat sat on a horse, forgot his God.

Türkin gəlişi, tatın görişi - Tərəkəmənin gəlişi, tatın görişi.

Tatı döy, qonаq ol. Beat the Tat, be guest.

Tatın günü, itin günü. Tat's day, dog's day.

Qısqı güclü olanda, tat bacadan qaçar. When the pressure is strong, Tat would escape through chimney.

Çövür tatı, vur tatı. Turn the Tat, beat the Tat.


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Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; November 19th, 2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:53 AM   #362
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #363

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I said that two people from the same background can view themselves in different ways. I doubt the author of the proverb spoke for all Azerbaijanis or Turks past and present. Not everyone in Azerbaijan or Turkey is interested in pan-Turkism and posting some obscure anti-Persian proverb doesn't change that. I think people with your ideology can really be a problem because they just sow discord among others and try to separate them based on racist ideas. Someone can be ethnically a Turk and still be part of Iranian/Persian culture and society. If you're talking about the Safavids to say they were 100% Turkish in race, culture, language and society is false.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:39 AM   #364
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Proverbs are rooted in culture, it is not someones personal opinion. And what it says in proverbs are something else, what I meant was that even in old times they made a distinction between themselves and other groups, and in these particular examples, Persians.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:52 AM   #365
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I assume that you replied to this line, otherwise I don't know why you wrote those words in first place.

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Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
And yes we are Turks, thats how Persians and others refer to us, Russians referred to us as Tatars in history, is that even a question?
You said that ethnic identities are complex. And I wrote that we have always identified ourselves as Turks, nothing complex about it.

Your religion or political agenda are not related to your ethnic identity.

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; November 19th, 2012 at 10:03 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:00 PM   #366

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
Antocya, Azerbaijani Turks always identified themselves as Turks and even distanced themselves from non-Turks.

Here are old Azerbaijani proverbs about Persians (referred to as Tats). Nationalism did not exist during old times, but that does not mean that people did not identify themselves within larger groups and neither held feelings towards their own and others.

In these examples Azerbaijani Turks refer to themselves as Turk or Tarakama (Turkemen).

Tat ata mindi, tanrısını tanımadı. Tat sat on a horse, forgot his God.
...
Çövür tatı, vur tatı. Turn the Tat, beat the Tat.

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Tat is a general word for Iranian, and does not necessarily mean Persian. As Azeri Turks live in the northern parts of Iran it is usually the case that the Tat people are speakers of the Northwestern Iranian languages, such as Kurds, Talyshis, Gilakis, etc. I don't know if you are aware that they are quite different from Persians.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:24 PM   #367
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The ethnic minority in Azerbaijan named Tat speak the south-western Iranian language, so I believe they are actually Persians.

It is my understanding that Turks referred to Persians as Tat, for instance Ahmad Al-Kashgari mentions the following word in his Divan-i Lügati't Türk:

Tatsız Türk bolmas, başsız börk bolmas. There is no Turk without a Tat (just as) there can be no head without a hat.

Perhaps it was also a general word for Iranian populations by Turks, and its actual meaning is "foreigner".
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #368

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
The ethnic minority in Azerbaijan named Tat speak the south-western Iranian language, so I believe they are actually Persians.

It is my understanding that Turks referred to Persians as Tat, for instance Ahmad Al-Kashgari mentions the following word in his Divan-i Lügati't Türk:

Tatsız Türk bolmas, başsız börk bolmas. There is no Turk without a Tat (just as) there can be no head without a hat.

Perhaps it was also a general word for Iranian populations by Turks, and its actual meaning is "foreigner".
That's true. But I thought we were generally talking about Iranian Azerbaijan, where the talysh people living there are called Tat.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:31 PM   #369
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These proverbs are actually from Caucasus. And are you sure that Talysh people are called Tat?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #370

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Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
Tatsız Türk bolmas, başsız börk bolmas. There is no Turk without a Tat (just as) there can be no head without a hat.
A rather suspicious translation, but that's OK for now.
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