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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #371

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Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
These proverbs are actually from Caucasus. And are you sure that Talysh people are called Tat?
Yes, actually they themselves call their own language Tati.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #372
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The north-western Tat only exists in Qazvin (or rather south of it) and are rather outside of Azerbaijan geographically. Talyshes to my knowledge do not call themselves (or their language) Tat.

In any case, the term Tat in Azerbaijan itself is referred to speakers of the Persian language and not Talyshes.

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; November 19th, 2012 at 12:02 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:50 AM   #373
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But just to mention, the term Tat could indeed have a broader meaning in older times. In any case, the proverbs which I posted was from Caucasus, where Turks and Persian-speakers of Absheron had been in contact.

It is worth to mention that Tat is a name used by Azerbaijani Turks, while they themselves use different names.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #374

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Ok, as someone who has lived in Ardabil for some time, that was all I had. The Talyshis are called Tats by Turks and I met some people from Khalkhal which called themselves Tats. I don't know why you are trying to prove me wrong when I have had first hand encounters. Besides, that is not against any of your statements so I do not understand why your are trying so hard.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:54 AM   #375
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We do not call Talyshes as Tats in Azerbaijan (and to my knowledge, there was a distinction between Tat and Talysh in old times), that is why it sounds kind of weird to me. But if you say so.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #376

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Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
Proverbs are rooted in culture, it is not someones personal opinion. And what it says in proverbs are something else, what I meant was that even in old times they made a distinction between themselves and other groups, and in these particular examples, Persians.
Proverbs and folk tales can contradict one another and even seem to advocate things which are not accepted in the general culture, such as adultery, lying, etc. I wouldn't make too much of it.

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Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
I assume that you replied to this line, otherwise I don't know why you wrote those words in first place.



You said that ethnic identities are complex. And I wrote that we have always identified ourselves as Turks, nothing complex about it.

Your religion or political agenda are not related to your ethnic identity.
You can be a Turk but the significance of that identity means different things to different people, especially if they live in a multi-ethnic country, and then there are multi-racial people.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #377
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Here is some words of Sheikh Safiaddin in Azerbaijani Turkish, for some reason hes falsely regarded as a non-Turk citing Vladimir Minorsky. His main works are in Persian, but he also was a Turkic speaker as we can see from some of his texts.

This is not a modern-translation btw, the text are in middle-Azerbaijani, and easy to recognize.

"Mə’nası budur kim, ol həzrətdə şol kimsə yüz suyun hasil edər, rövşən yüz ilə, yə’ni eyni-bəsirətlə yüz suyu istiyə. Və nə qədər kim, salikə mə’rifət ziyadə bola, təqərrüb dəxi ziyadə bolur. Və nə qədər kim, təqərrüb ziyadə bolur, yüz suyu dəxi ziyadə bolur. Şol dəlil ilə kim, dua və təzərrö vəqtində Həzrəti-izzətdə anların yüz suyu şəfi bolur mücrimlərə. Zira kim, Həzrətdə anların ziyadə təqərrübü vardır."

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; December 4th, 2012 at 06:43 PM.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #378
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We were talking about the Tat term above, I have two old poems from Qashqais which refer to Persians by two names, Tat and Tajik.

Qaşqayı
iyidi dağdan yen yerə,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!
Yaman yerdə düşdüm namərd əlinə,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!

Atayudum kəmanımın oxunu,
Satayudum gəp gövhərin çoxunu.
Talayudum düşmənin var yoxunu,
Dilim bağlı, tat önündə qalmışam!

Düzgün deyir oğluz yaman dardadır,
Köçən qonan elləriniz hardadır?
Sinə dolu hicran qəmim yardadır,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!

------------------------------------

Qaşqayı evidir, ayıq ol Tacik,
Sədaqəti kimi kinəsi də var.
Ürəyi açıqdır, süfrəsi açıq,
Yağış yağdırarsa, alov da saçar.

Qarşında kiçilər, qurbanlıq kəsər,
Qonağa, hörmətə, dəbə tələsər.
Var gücilə amma yadı da basar,
Yurduna xor baxan olmaz kamkar.

Kirli ürəyindən, kirli gözündən,
Atmacalar dolu acı sözündən,
Tacikin rəngindən, onun üzündən,
Sən qoru elimi ya Pərvərdigar!

I think I will be accused of racism if I try to translate them, so its better without.



Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; December 4th, 2012 at 10:04 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #379

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No doubt for that.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 05:15 AM   #380

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaraqoyunlu View Post
We were talking about the Tat term above, I have two old poems from Qashqais which refer to Persians by two names, Tat and Tajik.

Qaşqayı
iyidi dağdan yen yerə,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!
Yaman yerdə düşdüm namərd əlinə,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!

Atayudum kəmanımın oxunu,
Satayudum gəp gövhərin çoxunu.
Talayudum düşmənin var yoxunu,
Dilim bağlı, tat önündə qalmışam!

Düzgün deyir oğluz yaman dardadır,
Köçən qonan elləriniz hardadır?
Sinə dolu hicran qəmim yardadır,
Dilim bağlı, Tat önündə qalmışam!

------------------------------------

Qaşqayı evidir, ayıq ol Tacik,
Sədaqəti kimi kinəsi də var.
Ürəyi açıqdır, süfrəsi açıq,
Yağış yağdırarsa, alov da saçar.

Qarşında kiçilər, qurbanlıq kəsər,
Qonağa, hörmətə, dəbə tələsər.
Var gücilə amma yadı da basar,
Yurduna xor baxan olmaz kamkar.

Kirli ürəyindən, kirli gözündən,
Atmacalar dolu acı sözündən,
Tacikin rəngindən, onun üzündən,
Sən qoru elimi ya Pərvərdigar!

I think I will be accused of racism if I try to translate them, so its better without.


You are not responsible for what other people thought. It is quite understandable that when two people live in adjacent areas for a long time and have conflicts of interest they begin to show interest (at first) and then contempt in each others language and culture.
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