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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:35 PM   #101

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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Gauda View Post
False.

Oldest Oghuz turk potraits:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../6e/Tyurki.jpg

Seems pretty mongolic.

Most Turkmen are direct descendants of the Oghuz and most show distinctly mongolic features.
That is sufficient evidence for me.
Gokturks were Ashina Turks, even also they were depicted in chinese sources with non-mongoloid features:

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Ashina Turks might have possessed features different from other Huns. In the 17th year of Western Wei's Datong era, i.e., AD 551, Turkic Khan Tumen (Bumin) obtained Toba Princess Changle as a bride. In the first year of Western Wei Emperor Feidi, Tumen defeated the Ruruans and Tumen declared himself Khan Yili. Tumen's son, named Keluo, was Khan Yixiji, and he defeated Ruruan Khan's brother (Dengshuzi). Yixiji's brother, Sijin (Sinjibu?), aka Yandu, would succeed Khan Yixiji as Khan Muchu. Sijin was recorded to be red-faced and possess eyes like "liuli" [now meaning brown and green imperial construction, previously meaning five-color glass].
.................................................. ...................

In the 7th century, there was record in regards to the difference of Ashina Turks from the ordinary Hu or Huns. A Turkic khan called Simo was not recommended for the post of Turkic Arch-Khan because he looked more like an ordinary 'Hu' nomad than an Ashina Turk. This kind of records, however, did corrobate the fact that Central Asian features, maybe in areas like deep socket eyes and high nose bridge, were rare in relationship with the general physique of the people in the steppe area. Speculation would be that majority Huns were of Mongol stock, but few Altaic people, like the Jiehu & Ashina Turks, had inherited or picked up Caucasian features of Chinese Turkistan or Central Asia, possibly after the ancestral Huns raided to the west.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #102

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Were Uzun Hasan Mongoloid? We know that he weren't thanks to the portrait we have of him, painted by Italians who visited his court.
As far as i know married already Kutlu Beg a princess of Trapezunt. Kara Osman, the great grandfather shall be married with a byzantine princess. So why should Uzun Hasan look mongolide?
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #103

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And actually, we do know about Uzun Hasan's family tree, there is no foreign marriage. His mother was a Turkoman aswell (Sara Khatun). Uzun Hasan was the first to do that by marriage with Greek dynastic family of Trabzon (Pontus). I'm not arguing about 11th century Oghuz here.
Foreign marriages were common in dynasties, but I am not sure, this is valid for nomadic Turkomans especially after they were Islamized, became Alevites or Shiites, as I know most of these tribes did not marry outside of their tribe even with other Turkic tribes, today this still valid for the Anatolian Turkoman Alevites, they do not make intermarriage easily...
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:49 PM   #104

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But it is good enough example of majority of west Oghuz tribes during that time-era. And actually, we do know about Uzun Hasan's family tree, there is no foreign marriage. His mother was a Turkoman aswell (Sara Khatun). Uzun Hasan was the first to do that by marriage with Greek dynastic family of Trabzon (Pontus). I'm not arguing about 11th century Oghuz here.
Well, I mean his family tree back to the 11th century migrations. I suppose that it doesn't exist.

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Well, I added also comment about Tajiks, which is still a large population there. So what kind of "assimilation" do we talk about here? That is also true.
Precisely, they are still a large population there despite all the mixing and massacres (I doubt that they are all what is left of the original inhabitants). I don't think that anybody seriously questions the gradual of assimilation of most Iranians there by Turkic speakers, which hasn't ended yet. Language doesn't necessarily indicate an exact genetic makeup of a person.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #105

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Also, Turkmens have strong non-Oghuz influences, that you guys should probably know. Their language has immense Chaghatay influence for one.
But that can be also said about caucasoid influences on them. Turkmens raided Northern Iran until the 19th century, taking many slaves among Persian villagers and townspeople there and their descendants have been assimilated into the Turkmen society. So, the existence of caucasoid Turkmens also doesn't necessarily prove that early medieval Oghuz were caucasoid.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #106

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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
As far as i know married already Kutlu Beg a princess of Trapezunt. Kara Osman, the great grandfather shall be married with a byzantine princess. So why should Uzun Hasan look mongolide?
As far as I know mongoloid feature is dominant, for instance if a European now marries with a say Chinese, the child still mostly have the chinese features in apperance, I do not know how many generations were needed to erase the Mongoloid appearance.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by beorna View Post
As far as i know married already Kutlu Beg a princess of Trapezunt. Kara Osman, the great grandfather shall be married with a byzantine princess. So why should Uzun Hasan look mongolide?
He still would have such features if his grandfather would, Timur's descendands still had Mongoloid features for the large part even though they married into non-Turks.

And we still have plenty of other examples of west Oghuzes. And also prominent Oghuz poets from the same era, like Fuzuli, who was from the Bayat tribe of Oghuz.

Last edited by Qaraqoyunlu; October 29th, 2012 at 05:03 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #108

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The Turkic rulers had a prevailing custom of taking female concubines from Indo-European peoples living in the region, such as the Circassians, Alans, etc. they were genetically predominantly Indo-European. This is especially valid for the Ottoman Sultans, who were overwhelmingly non-Turkic in genealogy due to this factor (consistent generational use of Indo-European concubines).
This is what Ottoman rulers did with non-Turkic womens,not the whole Turkish population.I dont think a wide group sex movement occured in Anatolia.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #109

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I think that would be interesting to quote a 9th century Muslim tradition written down in Central Asia, which describes the appearance of Turks:

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Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179 : Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."
Sahih Bukhari : Read, Study, Search Online

Last edited by Ayazid; October 29th, 2012 at 05:28 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #110

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This is what Ottoman rulers did with non-Turkic womens,not the whole Turkish population.I dont think a wide group sex movement occured in Anatolia.
This was a practice not just to the Ottoman Sultans themselves but also of high ranking Ottoman noblemen/vizers too as well as other Turkic khans.
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