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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:19 PM   #201

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A Turkish author's opinion:

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Western and Turkish historians disagree over various questions concerning the ethnic and demographic change which occurred with the settlement of the Turks in Anatolia. The most important of these is the demographic number of these new Anatolians. The second is the question of whether these Turks were entirely or only in part nomads. Both western and Turkish historians have investigated the arrival and settlement of the Turkomans in Anatolia in two phases: before and after the Mongol invasion. In the first phase, which begins with the battle of Manzikert (Malazgirt), the Turkomans flowed en masse into Anatolia and began to settle. Not all of those who came were nomads, for among them were Muslim Turks who had become urbanised while in Central Asia. When these people arrived they settled in the towns in Anatolia and continued to pursue their professions there. Even in this early period the Turkish population quickly began to reach a majority in relation to the local population in Anatolia. In the second phase, which began with the Mongol invasions, a mass of nomads arrived from the regions of Transoxania, Khorasm, Azerbaijan and Erran. Many urbanised Turks arrived, too, fleeing together with the nomadic population before the Mongols and taking refuge in Anatolia. This period coincides with the reigns of Izzeddin Keykavus I and Alaeddin Keykubad I.

It has been suggested that the Turks came to Anatolia at a date much earlier than the battle of Manzikert (Malazgirt). Some western historians, however, such as Claude Cahen, have adopted a more cautious approach. They accept that in the first phase the Turks in Anatolia, while not yet reaching a figure greater than that of the local population, did attain fairly large numbers, but agree that the Turkish demographic superiority over the local population occurred and increased in particular after the Mongol invasion, that is, beginning in the first quarter of the thirteenth century.

The fact that western sources began to refer to Anatolia as ‘Turchia’ after the third crusade of 1189 led by Frederick Barbarossa indicates that Anatolia had by now become a Turkish region and that a process of ‘Turkification’ and, of course, parallel with this, one of ‘Islamisation’, had begun there. There is no doubt that this was a process begun by the Turkoman, whose numbers gradually increased, particularly in the rural areas, although the towns also had a share in this process. We are not in a position to give precise figures today for the numbers of the Turkish population in Anatolia in the invasion and settlement period or for the local population, and there is no great likelihood that we will be able to in the future. If we possessed the tahrir defterleri (survey registers) which no doubt existed in the Seljuk period, as was noted above, we would be in a position to provide such figures. However, although we do not have definitive data for the non-Muslim population being smaller than the Turkish population, particularly before the Mongol invasion, it is certain that after this invasion the Turkish population slowly rose, overtaking that of the non-Muslims, to attain demographic superiority. (p. 362-64)

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The Cambridge History of Turkey (Volume 1): Kate Fleet: 9780521620932: Amazon.com: Books

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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #202

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Originally Posted by Ayazid View Post
The authors of Kleine Geschichte der Türkei estimate that between 100-300 000 Turkmens settled in Anatolia, inhabited between 2-3 millions of Greeks, Armenians etc., but we will probably never know for sure.
Those numbers seem plausible actually. The same can be said about all the previous ethnicities living there though. The Greeks that migrated back in 1300 B.C were not as many as the natives (Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Luwians of West Anatolia), nor were the Armenians and the Phrygians (compared to the Hatti, Luwians, Palaics, Hurrians, Urartu) who migrated when the Hittite empire collapsed.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 02:36 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by infestřr View Post
yes, can we have a number already?
We can not possibly know this because the Turks were as much mixed as the Anatolians thousands of year ago.

People writing Greek does not make the Greek.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #204

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Originally Posted by Midas View Post
Those numbers seem plausible actually. The same can be said about all the previous ethnicities living there though. The Greeks that migrated back in 1300 B.C were not as many as the natives (Lydians, Carians, Lycians, Luwians of West Anatolia), nor were the Armenians and the Phrygians (compared to the Hatti, Luwians, Palaics, Hurrians, Urartu) who migrated when the Hittite empire collapsed.
Speaking of the people in the Iranian Plateau, it is said that the migration of Aryans contributed less than 10% to the region's diverse genetic background (calculated based on the frequency of R1a Y-Haplogroup). I guess the same holds for Anatolia, not to mention that Anatolia in the 11th century AD was much much more densely populated than Iran in the 1st millennium BC.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 11:48 PM   #205

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Originally Posted by hazratemahmood View Post
Speaking of the people in the Iranian Plateau, it is said that the migration of Aryans contributed less than 10% to the region's diverse genetic background (calculated based on the frequency of R1a Y-Haplogroup). I guess the same holds for Anatolia, not to mention that Anatolia in the 11th century AD was much much more densely populated than Iran in the 1st millennium BC.
The same holds for Greece actually, the Indo-Europeans who migrated here were a minority.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 03:44 AM   #206
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Original Indo-European speaking people were not necessarily European looking. They might have looked like how Indians looked like generally.

On the other hand, Turkic people were mixed from the start with every possible combination.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #207

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The R1a Y-Haplogroup is not about the looks, and its abundance in India is as high as it is in Eastern Europe.

I agree with the mixed background of Turkmen before their migrations.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 08:09 AM   #208
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The R1a Y-Haplogroup is not about the looks, and its abundance in India is as high as it is in Eastern Europe.

I agree with the mixed background of Turkmen before their migrations.
I'm talking about Proto-Turks. Not the Turkmen.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 08:50 AM   #209

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Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
I'm talking about Proto-Turks. Not the Turkmen.
Actually we do not know anything about the genetic make up of Proto-Turks (Earliest speakers of Turkic who distinguished themselves from the Chuvash). If you are referring to old Turks, they might have been mixed.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #210
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She is an actress:
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