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Middle Eastern and African History Middle Eastern and African History Forum - Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and all nations of Africa and the Arabian Peninsula


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Old November 20th, 2012, 09:21 PM   #31
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You gotta remember that the "race for africa" in colonisation was only 1880s, in 1914 colonisation and the paternal and somewhat racist attitudes that supported it were in full swing. Zionism when it developed was totally in synch with the attitudes of the Europeans at the time. The Wash up of WW1 was basically colonialist the league of Nations "Mandates" were pretty much colonialism by a name that americans like Woodrow Wilson could accept, most of the mandate stuff wasn't intended to be taken seriously it was window dressing (though once the Mandates and League was in place some people involved were naive or Idealistic enough to believe in the Mandate as a concept).
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Old November 20th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #32
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You gotta remember that the "race for africa" in colonisation was only 1880s, in 1914 colonisation and the paternal and somewhat racist attitudes that supported it were in full swing. Zionism when it developed was totally in synch with the attitudes of the Europeans at the time. The Wash up of WW1 was basically colonialist the league of Nations "Mandates" were pretty much colonialism by a name that americans like Woodrow Wilson could accept, most of the mandate stuff wasn't intended to be taken seriously it was window dressing (though once the Mandates and League was in place some people involved were naive or Idealistic enough to believe in the Mandate as a concept).
Quite relevant points; we must entirely agree.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 12:13 AM   #33
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When israel was created many jews were living there already. However ni 1900 before herzl's death he considered buying uganda as a TEMPORARY solution toall the pogoroms done to jews in russia. That did'nt work out because the place was not suit for people.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 12:30 AM   #34

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Several alternatives were suggested and considered, but ultimately the civilised world realised it would make the most sense to restore the Jews' homeland to its rightful owners, considering they'd already spent several thousand years living there in the first place and many Jews were actually still there.

No. No one restored the jews to their homeland. They simply gravitated there after WW II. The land was supposed to be shared with the arab population in some unworkable comprimise cooked up by us Brits. Almost the momrnt we pulled out the Jews unilateraly decalared the state of Israel and there followed a quick war, the rest is history.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 12:44 AM   #35

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agreed. it's like turks decide to go back to central asia now because they claim that it's their promised land and start to repopulate the russo-chinese-mongolian lands after a millennium and expect it to be perfectly acceptable. they also revive the ancient turkish language, start writing in gokturk script and speak that. this is pretty much what israel did. "only" after 2 or 3 millennia, not 1.
Yes, and I don't expect Turks to come back to Central Asia with a similar "Agenda" as when Israel was created !!
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Old November 21st, 2012, 01:09 AM   #36

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They settled there because it's where they came from. The Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years. Zionism was a secular movement, not a religious one. In fact, the religious Jews were opposed to Zionism and many still are.



Several alternatives were suggested and considered, but ultimately the civilised world realised it would make the most sense to restore the Jews' homeland to its rightful owners, considering they'd already spent several thousand years living there in the first place and many Jews were actually still there.

Please note: Israel was not 'created.' That implies Israel had never existed previously, which is false. Israel was reborn.



You mean put them in a foreign country with which they have no historic connection? Seriously?



It was known that the resettlement of the Jews in their historic homeland would cause a lot of trouble with people who wanted to steal it off them, but this was not considered a valid reason for denying their right to return.



You should ask the Muslims. They're the ones who built a mosque on top of the Temple Mount.
Yes, Jews existed in the region since thousands of years, but they were not there "Alone"......Other Semitic groups were invloved in the region too, while the Israelites originated from Ancient Iraq (Mesopotamia), and didn't evolve as a kingdom in Canaan until the Exodus from Egypt.

Jews lived under tolerant Muslim dynasties, as its their right (as well as others) to settle in these areas....But I believe the concepts and Agenda of Zionist took more leverage in the late 19th century as opposed to moderate Jews...the agenda is obviously violant....

On the other point....

the Holy lands are naturaly of great importance to Muslims since a Muslim cannot be "Muslim" unless he's a believer in Judaism and Christianity....and because Prophet Mohammed is believed to made his spiritual journey.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 02:07 AM   #37

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Between 1934 and 1936 at Civitavecchia, Italy, Jews trained as Navy officers [in 1936 it was the Rabbi at Rome to open the classroom].

In a few words there was the project to give some fleet and naval power to the Jews. The project ended in 1938 for well known reasons.

Someone adds that in the the context of the "imperial effort" there was also the suggestion to give a land to the Jews in the African Horn [may be the presence of the African Jews, the Falasha, in the area suggested something].
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Old November 21st, 2012, 07:03 AM   #38
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When israel was created many jews were living there already. However ni 1900 before herzl's death he considered buying uganda as a TEMPORARY solution toall the pogoroms done to jews in russia. That did'nt work out because the place was not suit for people.
Exactly how many Jews were there before the Balfour Declaration (1917)?

According to the census five years later (1922) there were just 83,970 Jews (for a total population of 649,048).

This was almost at the end of the Third Zionist Aliyah (Jewish immigration wave); according to the Jewish Virtual Library, in all some 115,000 Jewish immigrants arrived to Palestine just in these waves...

(Obviously some of them returned back home)



BTW, I understand that the claim for a national territory came virtually entirely from Jews in Europe, not from the evidently scarce Jewish population already living in the Ottoman Palestine previous to the aforementioned First Aliyah (1882-1903) among whom Zionism seems to have been virtually entirely absent.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 07:23 AM   #39
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i understand that jews settled to today's lands called palestine/israel for they believed it was the promised land to them. didnt they consider an alternative? i mean, why not buy a land from an african country or some other region that is not this explosive. i'm sure they knew that their settlement would cause a lot of trouble, but they did it anyways?

New York seemed a popular destination. I could understand that.

If they had been smart we would have set up a bit of land between Corpus and Brownsville in Texas or the county next to the one Walt Disney effectively bought. Connection to international waters, surrounded by a non hostile world power, access to excellent Tex Mex-perfection.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 08:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankari View Post
They settled there because it's where they came from. The Jews have lived in that region for thousands of years. Zionism was a secular movement, not a religious one. In fact, the religious Jews were opposed to Zionism and many still are.



Several alternatives were suggested and considered, but ultimately the civilised world realised it would make the most sense to restore the Jews' homeland to its rightful owners, considering they'd already spent several thousand years living there in the first place and many Jews were actually still there.

Please note: Israel was not 'created.' That implies Israel had never existed previously, which is false. Israel was reborn.



You mean put them in a foreign country with which they have no historic connection? Seriously?



It was known that the resettlement of the Jews in their historic homeland would cause a lot of trouble with people who wanted to steal it off them, but this was not considered a valid reason for denying their right to return.



You should ask the Muslims. They're the ones who built a mosque on top of the Temple Mount.
Just exactly how many years needs to be passed for a land to become an eternal home to a group of people? Can you say Turks have a right to rule the lands from Central Asia to Hungary since we had them for many centuries?

This kind of thinking is beyond irrational. You could say the people living there wanted their own state and I won't object to that reasoning but claiming it an historical homeland with a religious myth flavour on top of it is nonsense.
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